Park His ASS! NASCAR Revenge...

[VoodooBoss]

With Matt Kenseth taking out Joey Logano this past weekend it seems NASACAR needs to take some action on Kenseth. I agree with this article they they need to Park His ASS! What do you think?

http://autoweek.com/article/nascar-sprint-cup/park-his-ass-nascar-needs-come-down-hard-matt-kenseth?utm_source=RacingDaily20151102&utm_medium=enewsletter&utm_term=image-top&utm_content=body&utm_campaign=awracingdaily

 

[Fomoco302]

IMHO NASCAR is just one step above professional wrestling. Mysterious rules infractions, "debris" cautions are all part of the agenda. They will publicly decry these incidents but Brian France and his minions are counting the money in the bank. This stuff sells tickets and that's the bottom line.

 

[302BOB]

If NASCAR was really serious about sending a message that this type of behavior will not be tolerated, they would park him for the last three races. If Logano would have won he would have been one of the final four chasers for the championship at Homestead instead, Jeff Gordon is in. Logano HAS to win at Texas next week or Phoenix the week after to make the final four now. Kenseth had nothing to lose, as he was already eliminated. Alas, the sponsors & their money may have the final say on this.

 

[Hambone]

Suspended 2 races. I am waiting to see who is going to punt Harvick for what he did 2 weeks ago on the restart.

 

[PhilTaylor]

ok, admittedly these are "dick" moves

but didn't this just happen last week with Logano starting this and not getting suspended?:
http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/motor/2015/11/03/cavin-hey-nascar-logano-intentionally-wrecked-kenseth-too/75108642/

and the back-forth in 2012 with Jeff Gordon and Clint Boyer:
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/11/jeff-gordon-fined-100k-25-points-for-retaliation.html
http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/8622224/on-track-incident-jeff-gordon-clint-bowyer-touches-brawl

with no NASCAR action at this level of a 2-race suspension, much less any suspension?

given the precedent, or lack thereof, its likely the suspension gets overturned.

maybe, just maybe, the fact it was issued at all will stop this insanity of deliberately wrecking a competitor. where did that come from, some latent 7-year-old impulse to break your toys if you broke mine? really? can I get that job?

still seems a little self-serving and late from NASCAR. they should have been there 3 years ago. 100k and 25 points? 100k to these drivers?

 

[TMSBOSS]

Phil

Not sure you understand NASCAR.

Yes, there have been incidents of drivers intentionally hitting and in cases taking other drivers out of a race.
Never before has a driver 9 laps down sought out the race leader and intentionally drive his car into the wall. On top of that, there has never been a case of a drive taking out another where that action has effected the outcome of a race or a championship.
I watched there Kansas race live. Matt had the second fastest car on the track. The faster car was right behind him. Matt blocked the faster car several times. Joey, driving the faster car executed a common move in NASCAR, the Bump and Run. Matt SPUN, Matt DID NOT WRECK. Matt went from 1st to 14th. Had Matt allowed Joey to pass, remember Joey was faster, Matt would have dropped in behind Joey and likely finish second.

Appeal. Have drivers and teams appealed punishment and won, yes but not often. Has an appeal for drivers actions ever been successful? Not to my knowledge. Appeals related to technical inspections have been successful, but not often.

Was Matt wrong at Kansas? No, He tried to block the faster car. Was Joey wrong? No, he was faster and as is allowed in NASCAR to bumped the slower car and passed it.

In Martinsville Matt was 9 laps down. He intentional drove his car into the side of Joey while Joey was leading with 50 laps remaining.

Last year, same track Matt tracked down Brad in the paddock and put him in a headlock after the race.

In what sport is one athlete allowed to retaliate after the fact without consequences? I the case last year, Matt attacked Brad physically after the race. This year he attacked Joey two weeks later. The attack this year effected the outcome of the race and may have an effect on the outcome of a championship.

NASCAR has to send a strong message that this is not dirt track Saturday night racing. Failing to do so could have negative effects on the sport. Imagine what a multi-million dollar sponsor would do if they spent millions on developing speed in their car only to have a driver laps down wreck their car and their chances to put their brand in victory lane along with all the publicity associated? They would Likely look for another sport to invest in.

It's my guess the suspension will stand. WWF?? Without the suspension, yes.

 

[302BOB]

To clarify TMSBOSS's explanation of the Kansas race, Kenseth HAD to win that race to stay in the chase for the championship.Second place would have done him no good, Hence, his attempted blocking to stay alive.Logano was still in the chase without that win.

 

[PhilTaylor]

To clarify TMSBOSS's explanation of the Kansas race, Kenseth HAD to win that race to stay in the chase for the championship.Second place would have done him no good, Hence, his attempted blocking to stay alive.Logano was still in the chase without that win.

so some crashing is ok, and some isn't?

to me, all deliberate wrecking is wrong, and I think legally this distinction wont prevail in court.

and it seems a little too money related to get a sense of moral outrage. as in the "ok" wrecks are fodder for the "fans in the stands" and the "not-ok" wreck are because of sponsors and standings might be affected.

I get it, but I don't feel it.

personal opinion only, ymmv.

 

[TMSBOSS]

NASCAR does allow contact. Like the NFL, there are limits to acceptable contact. A defensive player can tackle the quarter back assuming he has the ball. No ball and you can expect a penalty or worse depending upon the offense.

In NASCAR a little rubbing has always been allowed. Their cars have bumpers. If a driver blocks a faster car, they can expect a bump if they delay the faster car. If a driver blocks they are risking being moved out of the way.

What is frowned upon is deliberately wrecking another car. Being 9 laps down and driving through the leaders car pushing him into the wall is not acceptable. This is the first time for an incident like this. During the "Modern Era" no driver has deliberately caused a wreck eliminating the race leader from a non-competitive position. Have they bumped the leader from second place, happens all the time. In Kansas Joey bumped Matt. Matt did not wreck.

Legal stand point. Interesting. NASCAR is a unique organization. I have seen only one case in history where a driver or drivers have taken a decision made by NASCAR to court. In that case the court ruled that NASCAR had the right to make their own rules and enforce their rules. Will JGR take this to court...they might. Will they run in NASCAR after doing so? I doubt it. Is NASCAR a democracy?? NO. You come to their tracks, run by their rules of go home.

 

[PhilTaylor]

Legal stand point. Interesting. NASCAR is a unique organization. I have seen only one case in history where a driver or drivers have taken a decision made by NSACAR to court. In that case the court ruled that NASCAR had the right to make their own rules and enforce their rules. Will JGR take this to court...they might. Will they run in NASCAR after doing so? I doubt it. Is NASCAR a democracy?? NO. You come to their tracks, run by their rules of go home.

the NFL is also a unique organization, and we have see the courts reign in decisions by the Commissioner that had no precedent. repeatedly.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/auto_racing/20151105_NASCAR_s_harsh_punishment_on_Matt_Kenseth_a_rarity.html
states that Matt was in the lead when Logano took him out at KC.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2015/11/03/brant-james-matt-kenseth-nascar-penalty/75104188/
states that NASCAR got it half right

http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/8625100/jeff-gordon-docked-25-points-wrecking-clint-bowyer-phoenix
states that Boyer was working on a top-5 finish and would have been in the chase against Keselowski.

this feels like NASCAR is trying to put the genie back in the bottle, after they let it out.

so I don't get the "never seen this before" bit...drivers in contention have certainly been deliberately wrecked before. "in contention" versus "in the lead" seems like a slim distinction.

"hey its ok to deliberately crash anyone from 2-last", and "hey its not ok to crash the leader" feels to me to be too arbitrary to pass in court.

 

[TMSBOSS]

My best guess. This will not end up in court.

There are ZERO NASCAR franchises. I believe All NFL teams are a franchise with franchise rights.

You apply for entry each week and if your entry is accepted, you enter inspections and then qualifying.


Joey DID NOT crash Matt at Kansas. Bump and run, yes. Did the bump and run eliminate Matt from the chase? Matt was the second fastest car on track, Joey fastest. Matt had to win and could not with the car he had. Matt spun, did not wreck.
Is a bump and run accepted in NASCAR, YES. Is intentionally wrecking a driver leading the race by a car 9 laps back allowed in NASCAR. Apparently not.

You are right, there is no precedent. This has never happened before. A driver laps down has never effected a race and potentially a championship before in this manner. With this being a fact, I do not see how the ruling from NASCAR is subject to being over turned. Exactly who will over turn the ruling??

NASCAR is sitting down a driver for unsportsmanlike conduct, wrongly effecting the outcome of a race and safety issues. The race team can and will play this weekend.

I noticed you have links to reporters opinions on the incident. Here is the link to the NASCAR site and the explanation given by the president of NASCAR.

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/articles/2015/11/4/brian-france-joey-logano-matt-kenseth-martinsville-siriusxm.html

Here is an second link, interview explaining the NASCAR position.

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/franchises/sirius-xm.sprint-cup-series-martinsville-speedway-sirius-xm-radio-brian-france.4597100880001.html

Let's see where this goes.

Do you watch NASCAR regularly?

 

[PhilTaylor]

My best guess. This will not end up in court.

There are ZERO NASCAR franchises. I believe All NFL teams are a franchise with franchise rights.

You apply for entry each week and if your entry is accepted, you enter inspections and then qualifying.

we will see, its already appealed and commentators are already stating they think its 2-race suspension to get trimmed to 1 on appeal.

cynical or actual?

Joey DID NOT crash Matt at Kansas. Bump and run, yes. Did the bump and run eliminate Matt from the chase? Matt was the second fastest car on track, Joey fastest. Matt had to win and could not with the car he had. Matt spun, did not wreck.
Is a bump and run accepted in NASCAR, YES. Is intentionally wrecking a driver leading the race by a car 9 laps back allowed in NASCAR. Apparently not.

I have seen multiple commentators calling what happened to Matt a wreck, we can agree to disagree.

You are right, there is no precedent. This has never happened before. A driver laps down has never effected a race and potentially a championship before in this manner. With this being a fact, I do not see how the ruling from NASCAR is subject to being over turned. Exactly who will over turn the ruling??

NASCAR is sitting down a driver for unsportsmanlike conduct, wrongly effecting the outcome of a race and safety issues. The race team can and will play this weekend.

very similar incidents have indeed happened, with no suspensions.

I noticed you have links to reporters opinions on the incident. Here is the link to the NASCAR site and the explanation given by the president of NASCAR.

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/articles/2015/11/4/brian-france-joey-logano-matt-kenseth-martinsville-siriusxm.html

Here is an second link, interview explaining the NASCAR position.

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/franchises/sirius-xm.sprint-cup-series-martinsville-speedway-sirius-xm-radio-brian-france.4597100880001.html

I don't care for the self-serving propaganda coming out of NASCAR over this. Its like what VAG is saying over the emissions scandal, typical corporate CYA.

Let's see where this goes.

Do you watch NASCAR regularly?

ad hominem, I don't matter in this discussion. discuss my arguments, not me.

this writeup:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2015/11/03/brant-james-matt-kenseth-nascar-penalty/75104188/

"The series had the power to make this right, just as it did in making it wrong by not parking Jeff Gordon for intentionally crashing Clint Bowyer — who was still in the title hunt — at Phoenix in 2012 or reacting with force to other on-track incidents. NASCAR’s perspective on driver retribution had become a bit revisionist this morning as chairman and CEO Brian France telegraphed a harsh response.

France said in a Tuesday morning interview on SiriusXM that the series “won’t be accepting” drivers taking “matters into their own hands.”

Was there a secret memo? Gordon vs. Bowyer, 2012, Phoenix International Raceway. Bowyer’s title hopes were dashed. Carl Edwards vs. Brad Keselowski, 2010, Atlanta Motor Speedway. Edwards sent Keselowski's car into the air. Probation for Gordon and Edwards. Move along.

There were proclamations from France that NASCAR is a “contact sport,” that drivers would work things out themselves, and a new Chase format that eliminated drivers after each of three rounds was created to generate more excitement in an era when TV ratings and attendance were falling. Moving a foe out of the way was part of the process and when push came to shove on the track, drivers started doing the same in the garage. Witness the fight between the crews of Keselowski and Gordon at Texas Motor Speedway last year – with some instigation from Kevin Harvick — or the melee between Kenseth and Keselowski between haulers at Charlotte.

Kenseth intentionally wrecking Logano joins list of infamous NASCAR moves

France should also know that his assertion that every driver knows the fine line of proper and improper conduct is preposterous, because his series’ constant tinkering with rules and stoking at the proverbial fire has created an environment in which drivers have reacted like subjects in a psychological experiment. Kenseth said last week that the series had lost control.
"
says it all.

that's quite a litany, and that's just recent. It doesnt include any of the past with Dale, or Richard, or any of the other hard-chargers who took "rubbing is racing" to an entirely new level.

that is the legacy left for these drivers, and of course they have pushed the edge of the envelope. its a circus, the rules are enforced somewhat arbitrarily, and its a bit hard to get stoked to any degree of moral outrage by Kenseths' actions as they are a logical extrapolation from what has gone before.

My opinion on what you are seeing is NASCAR finally realizes if this behavior pattern keeps extrapolating, someone will die and the corporate sponsors will leave.

Not any actual fairness concern, money.

its just my opinion, ymmv.

 

[TMSBOSS]

I agree with your last point. NASCAR Has lost drivers and has spent million protecting the drivers they have now. They Do Not want to loose drivers or sponsor money. Why would reducing the penalty now contribute to that effect?

To your point on the Boyer Gordon incident. That fine apparently was not enough to stop the recurrence. NASCAR has in the past increased fines, probation and suspension until the desired effect is accomplished. This suspension is more of the same. As such, is this not an example of NASCAR simply following their precedence for escalation of disciplinary actions until their desired effect is accomplished?

I still stand behind my statement. No driver nine laps down has deliberately taken out a race leader and in this case also the Chase leader. There is simply no incident to compare this action to. This would compare to a member of an opposing team going to the opposing bench and knocking a quarterback out of a game.

I asked you if you follow NASCAR in an effort to understand you knowledge of NASCAR. Don't read into that.

If you want to take this off line send me a PM. Not much Ford, Boss or GT-350 discussion in our exchange.

 

[TMSBOSS]

MATT KENSETH SUSPENSION UPHELD BY APPEALS PANEL
http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/articles/2015/11/5/matt-kenseth-appeal-ruling-nascar-official-release.html

The National Motorsports Appeals Panel today heard and considered the appeal of a Behavioral Penalty issued on Nov. 3 to Matt Kenseth (driver) relative to NASCAR Sprint Cup Series vehicle No. 20 at Martinsville Speedway.

The penalty concerns the following sections in the 2015 NASCAR Rule Book: Sections 12.1 and 12.8.

The original penalty assessed included suspension from NASCAR until the completion of the next two NASCAR Sprint Cup Series events and placed on NASCAR probation for six months following the issuance of the Penalty Notice.

Upon hearing the testimony, the decisions of the National Motorsports Appeals Panel are:
1. The Appellant violated the rules set forth in the Penalty notice;
2. The Panel affirms and upholds the original Penalty levied by NASCAR.

The panel consisted of the following three individuals:
Mr. Ken Clapp
Mr. Bill Mullis
Mr. Dale Pinilis

The Appellant has chosen to appeal the decision of the National Motorsports Appeals Panel to the National Motorsports Final Appeals Officer in accordance with Section 15 of the NASCAR Rule Book. The appeal will begin at 1 p.m. ET.

 

[TMSBOSS]

CONCORD, N.C. -- Matt Kenseth's suspension from NASCAR Sprint Cup Series competition was upheld Thursday after a final appeal, keeping him on the sidelines for the next two races.

Moss made one amendment to the penalty, reducing the original six-month probation period to run through Dec. 31.