Should I add sway bars or T-springs?

[Mad Hatter]

Lol.... thats engraved in my head already.... Looking forward to trying softer springs this season. Will be trying with no rear bar again and change the braking tactics too match... Brake to the apex to avoid that nasty under-steer and try -4.5 camber....

 

[Mad Hatter]

Everyone knows what I'm going to say..
Ford "blue" bar up front
Ford 18mm bar or no bar in the rear
Lots of camber
https://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-shockstrut-0510gt.html
Ford racing springs
and body roll is your friend...

some serious roll on that LR tire..lol

oh..... is that the Steeda LS type wing??

 

[Grant 302]

oh..... is that the Steeda LS type wing??

That's the '05-'09 Steeda wing. Needs adapters/spacers to fit on our '10+ trunk lid.

 

[Drlee50]

Everyone knows what I'm going to say..
Ford "blue" bar up front
Ford 18mm bar or no bar in the rear
Lots of camber
https://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-shockstrut-0510gt.html
Ford racing springs
and body roll is your friend...

some serious roll on that LR tire..lol

Would you say that setup is as good as coil overs, or at least damn close on this s197 chassis? (As far as lap times go)
Or are coil over THAT much better?

And are you talking about P-springs or a different spring ?

By the looks of that picture, that boss looks hooked up!
Thanks !!

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[2012-Boss]

Blacksheep,

I know Phoenix runs soft setups, but is the Continental Sports Car Challenge entry pictured really running just a set of over the counter, drop in, Ford Racing springs and an sub $1,000 set of struts?

I ask because in previous posts concerning Phoenix's CTSCC car setup, you said it was a game changer when the series moved away from the spec AST coil over strut and Phoenix was able to move to a Penske setup. Neither of these work with the springs you are recommending.

I also note that neither of the two Boss 302 race cars Phoenix has for sale uses the setup you posted. One has Penske's and the other Multimatic Dynamics. Again, these tend to take a 2.5" diameter spring and not an OEM style spring.

I assume the picture is more to illustrate Phoenix's preferred soft setup to maximize mechanical grip combined with a lot of negative camber and that your specific parts recommendation is for an affordable combination that works well. Is this correct?

I really want to make sure I fully understand your recommendation. Thanks.

 

[s9669s]

I'd say the BMR 35mm, unless you can find the Strano bar. My understanding is the Strano bar is not available new right now.

Is anyone running the BMR 35mm on a 2011+ car? It looks like it's generally listed for up to 2010, not beyond. I called BMR, and they highly recommended the 38mm bar for me (autox setup on wide RE71's + Koni's + BMR Handling springs + MM plates).

I found a good deal on a used BMR 38mm front bar, so I am going to give it a shot... Gut feel is it may be on the stiff side, but I am planning to start with it set soft and see how it goes. [Anyone else tried the BMR 38mm front bar? A quick search here did not turn up much.]

Somewhat related...anyone know rates for the Ford blue bars or Whiteline bars? The spring and bar posting here is a great resource, but those two are missing.

 

[Drlee50]

I could not find the blue bar info either.
That BMR 38mm bar is damn stiff tho

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[Grant 302]

The BMR 38mm makes sense for an AutoX car, IMO. It might make more sense on a car with stiffer springs overall, but I think you should be able to make it work for your use.

I could not find the blue bar info either.

Wish I had it...But my guess is not far from the Eibach rates and not much stiffer, if not the same bar.

 

[docs302]

Will be trying with no rear bar again and change the braking tactics too match... Brake to the apex to avoid that nasty under-steer and try -4.5 camber....

Mad Hatter, that's the set up I'm going with this year. Took the rear bar out and going big camber up front for front end grip and turn in. 450/225 on the coilovers and Strano 32mm bar up front. Added bigger aero front and rear so it's going to be interesting.

 

[Drlee50]

Mad Hatter, that's the set up I'm going with this year. Took the rear bar out and going big camber up front for front end grip and turn in. 450/225 on the coilovers and Strano 32mm bar up front. Added bigger aero front and rear so it's going to be interesting.

Were you at 550/ 250 before?

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[blacksheep-1]

Blacksheep,

I know Phoenix runs soft setups, but is the Continental Sports Car Challenge entry pictured really running just a set of over the counter, drop in, Ford Racing springs and an sub $1,000 set of struts?

I ask because in previous posts concerning Phoenix's CTSCC car setup, you said it was a game changer when the series moved away from the spec AST coil over strut and Phoenix was able to move to a Penske setup. Neither of these work with the springs you are recommending.

I also note that neither of the two Boss 302 race cars Phoenix has for sale uses the setup you posted. One has Penske's and the other Multimatic Dynamics. Again, these tend to take a 2.5" diameter spring and not an OEM style spring.

I assume the picture is more to illustrate Phoenix's preferred soft setup to maximize mechanical grip combined with a lot of negative camber and that your specific parts recommendation is for an affordable combination that works well. Is this correct?

I really want to make sure I fully understand your recommendation. Thanks.

No, the picture was to illustrate that body lean is not necessarily a bad thing, those cars all ran coil over shocks, so if there was a mis understanding, that is my fault.
I was talking to Joe (the boss) and we were talking about cars and setups and whatever, and he implied that the shocks were so important these days that the car needs to be built around them.
Which brings up the next situation, when IMSA (Grand AM) got away from the "spec" shocks, in this case the ASTs, it really made a huge difference. Basically, the whole field went to Penskes...but they are $10K shocks, and no ..for lack of a better term "casual" racer is going to run those unless they happen to be rich. From what I've seen and read, almost every shock manufacturer wants their shocks torn down and inspected every 20K miles...who, really is going to do that? (competition shocks are torn down almost every race so they don't really count).
The point is...the Ford setup pictured will work extremely well for 99% of the drivers out there, and even though ride height changes are easier on a coil over, spring changes are not so much, also, the separate spring/shock combo IMO is much more robust for street driving. I do, and have always run a decent set of adjustable shocks with a separate spring (unless a strut. of course) it meets the criteria...it works, it's cheap.
Sorry for giving anyone the wrong impression,

 

[blacksheep-1]

oh..... is that the Steeda LS type wing??

yes, run the IMSA Steeda wing and front splitter or the PWC wing and front splitter, do not mix and match, there's a lot of work put in there.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Would you say that setup is as good as coil overs, or at least damn close on this s197 chassis? (As far as lap times go)
Or are coil over THAT much better?

And are you talking about P-springs or a different spring ?

By the looks of that picture, that boss looks hooked up!
Thanks !!

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

I would have no issue running that setup on almost anything except an all out race car, however, coil overs..well some coil overs..will always be faster.

I can't tell you which bar the "blue" bar is, all I know is that pretty much everyone running mustangs at the time referred to it as the "blue" bar.

for the most part the cars that have to run off the shock springs are running this..there's a few exceptions but this will get you close...remember you're not building an all out, unlimited rule race car..what you are building is closer to an SCCA T3 or T4 type suspension.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-FR3A-MGTAA

 

[blacksheep-1]

SCCA Rule book for T2-T3 GCR information only..

Suspension Adjustments 1. T2-T4: A maximum of 3.5 degrees of negative chamber is allowed on front and rear suspensions. Spec line part(s) may not be modified to increase caster and camber. Strut suspensions may adjust camber and caster by the use of eccentric bushings, eccentric bolts (crash bolts) at the strut-to-spindle, and/or by use of slotted adjustment plates at the top of the strut mounting plate. If upper strut slotted adjustment plates are used, they shall be located on existing chassis structure, utilizing the unmodified manufacturer’s original bolt holes and may not serve as reinforcement for that structure. Slotted adjustment plates (strut camber plates) may incorporate a single spherical bearing (spherical bushing) and a ball thrust bearing per strut tower. On other forms of suspension, camber and caster adjustment may be achieved by the use of shims and/or eccentric bushings. Adjustable toe links with spherical bearings are permitted and may serve no purpose other than adjusting toe angle. Spherical bearings/bushings are not permitted in T2-T4 except for the specific examples listed in the class rules or vehicle spec line. b. Springs, Anti-Roll bar(s), and Shock Absorbers 1. Springs and anti-roll bar(s), shall remain as manufactured unless an alternate is listed on the vehicle specification line. Cars where air conditioning units have been removed shall refer additionally to Section D.3.b.1., above, for additional spring requirements. If alternate sway bar(s) are listed on the specification line, adjustable end links are allowed. The length of the link must be within 1” +/- length of stock. No modifications are allowed to the mounting point(s) other than to accomplish attachment of link. There may only be (1) rated spring per suspension corner. In addition to the main rated spring, there may be a “helper” spring on cars allowed a maximum spring rate on their spec line. Helper springs keep the main spring snug and feature a very soft rate, on the order of 10 lbs./in. 2. The make of shock absorber may be changed. Their number, perch location(s), system of attachment, and attachment points shall not be altered. Their type (tube vs. lever, etc.) shall not be altered. The interchange of gas and hydraulic shock absorbers is permitted. T4 only: Unless a specification line allows adjustable shocks, adjustable shocks are prohibited. Any non-adjustable shock absorber is allowed. Adjustable shocks that are retrofitted into nonadjustable appearance are prohibited. Removing adjusters or knobs from adjustable shocks is prohibited. Commercial part numbers for shocks must be visible and unaltered. Shocks must be installed in the original mounting locations. Remote reservoirs are not permitted. Threaded shock bodies or adjusters may be used. Shocks can serve no purpose other than to damp motion. a. The mounting hardware utilized shall be of the original type. b. The use of any shock absorber bushing material is permitted. Note: the bushing attaching the end of the strut to the body or frame on a strut-type suspension system is considered a suspension bushing, not a shock absorber bushing. c. T2 only: minimum ride height is 3.75” inches. T3 and T4 only: minimum ride height is 4.5” inches. Ride height to be measured without driver at the lowest point of the rocker, but not to include welded seams, fasteners or factory aero cladding. d. T2-T4 only: Cars with alternate spring allowance in spec line, may use adaptors, and adjustable perches to allow fitment of springs. c. Alternate Bushings 1. All T2 cars are allowed to replace OEM upper and lower control arm bushings with polyure

 

[docs302]

Were you at 550/ 250 before?

No I bought this Cortex set up from a TMO member and it was what they recommended as a street/track package. Is it the ideal rate for a track-only car....probably not but Rick at Cortex felt it was not that far off and not worth changing first. I was looking to go with a more adjustable front strut (JRi) and leave the springs as-is but just decided to keep what I have (single adj Koni) and play with camber and the rear sway bar. Of course, I then went all in with the watts and torque arm so who knows what really made a difference. I'm going to learn how to drive the car with what I have before spending more money. I can always go back to the panhard and UCA but I think I should have a good package now.

 

[Mad Hatter]

The Cortex Koni track setup was 600#/350# for the springs before... But following the lead of others on TMO... trying out with 500#/300# springs this season.

 

[Drlee50]

I should start a new thread but.... since we are on the subject.....I now have acquired a set of MCS double adj coil overs! =-) I talked with Tim today at Vorshlag and he pointed me towards 550/250 springs for my stock aero car. I have the "blacksheep blue bar" for the front and the 18mm ford bar for the rear. setting the camber to -3 degrees and gonna send it!
What i do not know: where the heck to start with the double adjustables! Terry was not in when i called so I'm flying blind on that. If anyone has a general starting point, that would be great. I promise I wont be stealing your podium at the T2/T3 race! I know it takes a lot to get these things figured out and every car is different but I need to get in the ball park at least.

I have scales so i will try to corner balance the car after i get the ride height set up.

 

[Grant 302]

^ You definitely got a good deal there!

I can't help you with the MCS settings, but I think you'll get it sorted out quickly.

 

[2012-Boss]

BlackSheep,

Thanks for the clarification / explanation.

I certainly agree about the value proposition concerning a good set of coil overs. I killed my JRi’s in two HPDE seasons. My fronts were completely dead. Based on discussion with JRi, I now send them in for rebuild every winter. That means about every 10 weekends. So, figure $600 with shipping every year. I don’t see a person who actually does much driving with a dual purpose car fairing much better.

I’ve softened my own suspension up over the last two seasons in increments. I think the car works better overall. I have a Strano front bar and even at its softest setting it may be two much. I’ll either look at a lower rate bar or drop the front rate another 50 lb to 500.

 

[Norm Peterson]

What i do not know: where the heck to start with the double adjustables! Terry was not in when i called so I'm flying blind on that. If anyone has a general starting point, that would be great.

Here's Koni's own take on tuning double adjustables from a few years back.

Tech Note

KONI ADJUSTMENT TUNING GUIDE
Suggested Adjustment Procedures For Road Racing Use

Adjusting The COMPRESSION (Bump) Damping Control
(Very Important to do this FIRST!)

Bump damping controls the unsprung weight of the vehicle (wheels, axles, etc.). It controls the upward movement of the suspension as when hitting a bump in the track. It should not be used to control the downward movement of the vehicle when it encounters dips. Also, it should not be used to control roll or bottoming.

Depending on the vehicle, the ideal bump setting can occur at any point within the adjustment range. This setting will be reached when "side-hop" or "walking" in a bumpy turn is minimal and the ride is not uncomfortably harsh. At any point other than this ideal setting, the "side-hopping" condition will be more pronounced and the ride may be too harsh.

STEP 1: Set all four dampers on minimum bump and minimum rebound settings.

STEP 2: Drive one or two laps to get the feel of the car. Note: When driving the car during the bump adjustment phase, disregard body lean or roll and concentrate solely on how the car feels over bumps. Also, try to notice if the car "walks" or "side-hops" on a rough turn.

STEP 3: Increase bump adjustment clockwise 3 clicks on all four dampers. Drive the car one or two laps. Repeat Step 3 until a point is reached where the car starts to feel hard over bumpy surfaces.

STEP 4: Back off the bump adjustment two clicks. The bump control is now set. Note: The back off point will probably be reached sooner on one end of the vehicle than the other. If this occurs, keep increasing the bump on the soft end until it, too, feels hard. Then back it off 2 clicks. The bump control is now set.

Adjusting the REBOUND Damping Control

Once you have found what you feel to be the best bump setting on all four wheels, you are now ready to proceed with adjusting the rebound. The rebound damping controls the transitional roll (lean) as when entering a turn. It does *not* limit the total amount of roll; it *does* limit how *fast* this total roll angle is achieved. How much the vehicle actually leans is determined by other things such as spring rate, sway bars, roll center, ride heights, etc.

It should be noted that too much rebound on either end of the vehicle will cause an initial loss of lateral acceleration (cornering grip) a that end which will cause the vehicle to oversteer or understeer excessively when entering a turn. Too much rebound control in relation to spring rate will cause a condition known as "jacking down." This is a condition where, after hitting a bump and compressing the spring, the damper does not allow the spring to return to a neutral position before the next bump is encountered. This repeats with each subsequent bump until the car is actually lowered onto the bump stops. Contact with the bump stops causes a drastic increase in roll stiffness. If this condition occurs on the front, the car will understeer; if it occurs on the rear, the car will oversteer.

STEP 1: With rebound set on full soft and the bump control set from your earlier testing, drive the car one of two laps, paying particular attention to how the car rolls when entering a turn.

STEP 2: Increase rebound damping three sweeps (or 3/4 turn) on all four dampers and drive the car one or two laps. Repeat Step 2 until the car enters the turns smoothly (no drastic attitude changes) and without leaning excessively. An increase in the rebound stiffness beyond this point is unnecessary and may result in a loss of cornering power. Note: As with the bump settings, this point will probably be reached at one end of the car before the other.

However, individual drivers may find it desirable to have a car that assumes an oversteering or understeering attitude when entering a turn. This can be easily "dialed-in" using slightly excessive rebound settings at either end.


Norm