Sonoma oct 10-11 2020. Nasa

[bob]

Because using a hardened bolt around other harden bolts is stupid? Makes you wonder if anyone used the softer bolts in suspension and died. Now that’s smart. Kind of reminds me of the twos springs in the M-60 bolt. They looked alike, one was capable of handling heat. Of course, one was cheaper. So, they used both. Clean the gun and the springs looked identical. Fire it and you had a 50-50 chance of failure when the springs got hot.
Yep, stupid as hell. Saving a few cents is not always the smart way to go. Keep hardened bolts around suspension, not a bad idea.

Ah....NO! This is no where near the suspension. And you don't use hardened bolts all over the place to make something fool-proof. In fact you can cause problems by using hardened nuts everywhere. It sounds like a good idea but it a really bad one. You see when you get old you will realize when things are made fool-proof they just make better fools!

My picture is a 10.9 factory bolt holding a non-critical fastener exhaust hanger and the nut on the other side not even a nut! It is a tin "nut plate clip" good for about 15ftlbs! That would never take 10.9 bolt torque nor should 10.9 torque be used here.

You see what is stupid and dangerous is spec'ing out improper fasteners for the job. A 12mm 10.9 on average takes 135 Nm or 100ftbls. A smart mechanic knows by bolt rating what the torque should be. Then you want to be exact you look at the manual and see if it jives. You can have a misprint in a book. We see that all the time especially when translated from different language or converted from metric to SAE. But a 10.9 is a 10.9. So lets say you have a semi captured ball joint in an "A" arm that would be held with a pair of M8 8.8 bolts normally about 20NM. The factory puts in a pair of M8 10.9's. Mechanic then torques the bolts to 50NM damages threads in ball joint and does not realize it. You are going 160MPH at Autoclub speedway and the ball joint blows out you die. There is a whole science to fasteners and Ford has chosen to ignore it on the S550 mustang. Use of prevailing torque fasteners in non-critical areas are but another unique Ford thing.

Proper fastener use actually keeps us safe especially if you are "on track" and a DIY guy. The track environment is really harsh. I started with a new 2004 Z06 vette and made it into a racecar. By the time I sold the chassis it had been through 4 motors and only had 17k miles on the chassis but the car felt like it had gone 300k miles. I sold the car to a friend who wanted to continue to race it. He knew why I was selling. There are so many parts to break it is impossible to keep up even when targeting the high percentage failure points. That's why I race a new 2019 mustang. Our environment is brutal. Sure enough the most rediculous thing failed on him the 2nd race he owned my old car. The harmonic balancer grenaded. There is no way to predict that.

 

[bob]

how did you like the 04Z?

I have one (actually 2) that is caged but not finished yet. Im probably gonna sell that project off because I dont have time to finish it and need something thats turn key and ideally 4 seats.

Its interesting to hear everyones comments.

you go over to the chevy guys and they say the same thing about their car and that Ford is better.

From what I have been able to gather so far is that

LT is a far superior engine compared to Coyote
Camaro is much better engineered out of the box
mustang can be had for MUCH cheaper
Chevy engine is considerably cheaper to mod (cams intake etc)
Mustang seems to have slightly better aftermarket support (K members, even sla if you want to get crazy)

What Im trying to sift through is all of the subjective information
It seems that most people whao have tracked their Mustangs will say that Camaros are much faster.
However talking to Camaro owners and looking at laptimes from the Camaro database - it seems the Mustang is actually slightly faster! WTF???

this is what Im having difficulty with understanding.

I loved the C5Z06 platform and still do! The problem is parts. Every OEM stops making parts about 10 years after the model year ends. So let's say you need a new steering rake. Can't buy it new. Can't buy a rebuild. You have to send yours in exchange and get a rebuild. Steering rakes can and do break from racing vettes. It isn't a week point but they do break. I broke one while racing at CoTA. Friday afternoon I spent all day calling everywhere to get a rack even the junk yards! Nothing for 300miles! I ended up buying a welder and welding the rack ears at the track! It lasted the whole season. I also travel race and it is difficult to travel with spares. Once year I traveled with steering rack and extra motor because you can't just buy an LS6 crate motor anymore. It was a pain. Just one more reason to now race a new mustang. I can buy crate motors from Ford and get new parts right from any dealer in America...right now!

That said my friends run SpecCorvette. I have raced SC too. Many C5's are ending up there. So think about that. It's a great class and is growing. It's just not for me anymore because of parts and maintenance. I love to tinker and fix things. When I built my mustang I welded my own cage. But I do not like working on cars at the track and I get very irritated if my car breaks at the track. I'll change to a new set of tires and put gas in it and that's it.

 

[67GTA]

However talking to Camaro owners and looking at laptimes from the Camaro database - it seems the Mustang is actually slightly faster! WTF???

So much of this comes down to tires and driver. To say that an SS 1LE is on pace with a Shelby - maybe an earlier GT350 on stock Super Sports. But a newer GT350 or GT350R on Sport Cup 2’s - not so much. Put a PP2 Mustang on the 1LE’s GY Supercar 3R’s, and times will be pretty close.

 

[D K]

ues, Spec Corvette is what I was planning on building so I bought a Z06 with some damage and a base car and planned on swapping out the drivetrain.
2 kids and a house later, and I have done 2 weeks worth of work in 3 years!
Also, here in CO, the spec corvette isnt here yet and my interest os really more in racing time attack with crazy development work or wheel to wheel in huge fields.

so im focusing my attention to a 4 seater time attack car that can be driven on street if really needed.

I loved the C5Z06 platform and still do! The problem is parts. Every OEM stops making parts about 10 years after the model year ends. So let's say you need a new steering rake. Can't buy it new. Can't buy a rebuild. You have to send yours in exchange and get a rebuild. Steering rakes can and do break from racing vettes. It isn't a week point but they do break. I broke one while racing at CoTA. Friday afternoon I spent all day calling everywhere to get a rack even the junk yards! Nothing for 300miles! I ended up buying a welder and welding the rack ears at the track! It lasted the whole season. I also travel race and it is difficult to travel with spares. Once year I traveled with steering rack and extra motor because you can't just buy an LS6 crate motor anymore. It was a pain. Just one more reason to now race a new mustang. I can buy crate motors from Ford and get new parts right from any dealer in America...right now!

That said my friends run SpecCorvette. I have raced SC too. Many C5's are ending up there. So think about that. It's a great class and is growing. It's just not for me anymore because of parts and maintenance. I love to tinker and fix things. When I built my mustang I welded my own cage. But I do not like working on cars at the track and I get very irritated if my car breaks at the track. I'll change to a new set of tires and put gas in it and that's it.

 

[D K]

Yeah. Thats the problem....too many variables.

I am starting to get a better idea overall by factoring in laptime delta from different mods, tires, and of course aero.

Its crazy how subjective people are!

But all good though!

So much of this comes down to tires and driver. To say that an SS 1LE is on pace with a Shelby - maybe an earlier GT350 on stock Super Sports. But a newer GT350 or GT350R on Sport Cup 2’s - not so much. Put a PP2 Mustang on the 1LE’s GY Supercar 3R’s, and times will be pretty close.

 

[TMSBOSS]

So then, buying a car you can’t see out of, your assessment, Smart. Spending $0.03-0.05 cents too much on a bolt is stupid......got it. Again, both were your assessments.
I have rented a few camaros when traveling. Nice cars that you can’t see out of. If you need a ground guide to get out of a parking spot, I don't want the car. I guess the whole visibility thing is an acceptable design flaw, too strong of a bolt.......OMG. I currently own both Fords and Chevys. Not sure I looked at the exhaust hangar bolts on either when determining the value of either. Thanks for the tip.

 

[D K]

For me, it comes down to availability and bang for the buck.

The Mustang wins here. By a lot.
I have been comparing lap times for both platforms and on average the Mustang wins.
The one big disparity is COTA where a ZLE is abot 6 seconds faster, but thats on full aero and slicks driven by a trans am driver.
Maybe there simply isnt a similarly prepped Mustang attempted that lap yet?

 

[bob]

I have been comparing lap times for both platforms and on average the Mustang wins.

I think if you compare laptimes in context you get a better feel for car's relative speed. Even in racing classes with rules on how the cars can be build the lap times vary hugely from conditions of that day. When you just look at a maro or stang laptime the car build is totally unknown as are the track conditions. I look at flyhalf's times as the only other guy I know running an A10 S550 and I know I cannot get to his times. His car has aero, some power enhancers unknown lightening, unknown tires, unknown suspension. My A10 is stock, limited suspension by rules, limited tire by rules, no aero, 50mm intake restrictor, and a bunch of other rules. I even have rules on my coolers. There is no way you can compare our times yet we both are running A10's.

 

[D K]

That is correct!

And this is why its taken me months to decide....

But...there is safety in numbers. This is why I compare a bunch oflaptimes and take averages instead of just one or two cars.

From what I have seen so far, on average, the Mustang is faster. I try to be mindful of what tires they run, if they have aero or not and if the car is gutted or not.
Thats about as far as you can go reading stats on the web.

Alessandros car is pretty quick, but he hase gone through 3 transmissions!
So thats not a good indicator.
I would prefer a manual anyway.

I would really like to see a Mustang on slicks and aero run in the 2 minute teens at COTA.
Thats the only track so far where the Camaro has an advantage. And its huuuuge....

I think if you compare laptimes in context you get a better feel for car's relative speed. Even in racing classes with rules on how the cars can be build the lap times vary hugely from conditions of that day. When you just look at a maro or stang laptime the car build is totally unknown as are the track conditions. I look at flyhalf's times as the only other guy I know running an A10 S550 and I know I cannot get to his times. His car has aero, some power enhancers unknown lightening, unknown tires, unknown suspension. My A10 is stock, limited suspension by rules, limited tire by rules, no aero, 50mm intake restrictor, and a bunch of other rules. I even have rules on my coolers. There is no way you can compare our times yet we both are running A10's.