steveespo new bullet for the 21 Car

[2012-Boss]

I am using Gen 1 timing components and engine management. I was able to get a set of some of the last Ford Performance cams for the GT350 heads that are designed for Gen 1 timing components and engine controls. SteveEspo has a 2018, so he will simply have his tune updated.

At this point for Gen 1 / Gen 2 cars, I would either use Boss or Gen 2 heads with a stock Boss or Gen 2 exhaust cam and L&M intake cam. I suspect you could make similar horsepower, but more important is the mid-range torque for corner exit, especially when you are trying to fit into a class like NASA ST2. In my opinion, for an ST2 or similar car this type of build helps increase mid-range torque and then you throttle blade tune the top end to match your average power to weight cap.

At my current weight, I can only get away with something in the area of 475 - 480 average HP based on NASA ST2 calculations with a 315 Hoosier. If you look at the above graphs for the 5.2L, I can throttle blade tune the engine and hold a flat 475 - 480 HP from 6200 through 8,000 (where the current limiter is set). In other words, the only time I would see a drop in horsepower is at corner exit (3,500 - 4,500 rpm) which is where the increased mid-range torque comes into play. Other than corner exit, my HP would absolutely constant.

 

[steveespo]

I have those same cams and 12-1 so the engines are very similar. I didn't know there was a stock crank with more stroke than the 5.0.
I thought that the rod angle limited the stroke in the Coyotes, at least that's what I was told when I was looking to do a stroker.
That's how I ended up with the stock gen 3 bottom end, it already has 12-1 and I was told there was no more stroke to be had.
The gen 3 also has a couple more cubes than the gen 2 block so I thought I was maxed out.
Regardless it makes great numbers for as little as I spent on it and I spin it to the moon and it lives, still a little more torque would be nice.

The Voodoo, Predator and Crossplane FP350S engines are all factory 5.2 with a 93mm stroke vs the Coyote 92.7mm stroke. Current bore on the Gen 3 Coyote is 93mm, Gen 1/2 Coyote was 92.7 and our 5.2 blocks are 94mm bores. Hope that explains it

 

[steveespo]

Really good info here, I hadn't thought about doing the Predator "shortblock" combined with G3 heads as a combo before. This *has* to be less money than an Aluminator XS5.2 (almost anything would be less expensive than that, though).

@steveespo @2012-Boss what are you guys doing for engine management? Gen3 controls packs?

Drew my car is Gen 3 which is why I run the DI and Gen 3 heads. Steve K 2012-Boss has his Boss and stayed with Gen 1 timing and the special Ford Cams that work with Gen 1 timing and GT350 heads. And yes both of our motors are as good or better for less than 1/2 the MSRP of the Aluminator XS engines. And my engine has all entirely new components, if I swapped some used accessories from my existing engine I probably could have saved another $2500. (Oil pan, fasteners, DI injectors, water pump and T stat/pipes, cam covers and all the sensors)

 

[2012-Boss]

If I hadn't bought the GT350 heads, GT500 oil pan, pump, pickup, valve covers, water pump, etcetera (i.e. re-used some stuff), I would have saved $5 - $6K. I built a completely all new engine minus the intake manifold and throttle body. That included all new OEM hoses ($$), fastners, fittings, alternator, water pump, oil system components, etcetera. When Steve says better than the Aluminator, it is because we have better oiling systems, ARP fasteners, ATI dampers (my build, SteveEspo's didn't have the correct press fit), PAC valve springs with titanium retainers, and the short block was spun balanced, checked for clearances, and bores honed with torque plates before Holbrook did final assembly.

I plan on building another 5.2L with parts off of my old Boss Long block (many of which have very little time on them such as GT500 water pump and Boss alternator kit) as a spare. I will recondition the Boss heads with a performance valve job and maybe a little port polishing (not porting, just a little smoothing). I will ditch the CJ cams and go back to the OEM Boss exhaust cam and use an L&M intake cam (same or better HP than the CJ cams with better mid-range torque). I may or may not reuse my Ford Performance CJ oil pump. If I do not, I will either buy an OEM pump and put Boudary Black billet gears in the housing or install an entire GT500 system with billet gears (which aren't really needed since the OEM GT500 gears are stronger and thicker than other models). I will also need to decide what to do about the damper. The Boss damper is discontinued. I could use an OEM Gen 2, Gen 3, or ATI, but the ATI is expensive and you have to check press fit. I can probably do this build for $10k or less.

I am going to plug a few vendor who has been instrumental in getting these and other engines together over the past two years. Thank you Leo, Craig, and Sandi Capaldi. Capaldi Racing has been able to get us parts at competive pricing when no one else could. In addition to obtaining hard to get parts (especially for Ford Performance), Capaldi Racing palatalized everything, delivered the short block parts to Holbrook, and made sure Holbrook contacted us about our builds. Once all parts were on hand at Capaldi, getting everything to Holbrook and final short block assembly took less than two weeks. This is not the first or only time Capaldi has come through for us. Steve lost an engine this summer while we were at Gingerman and the Capaldi's had a replacement engine ready for him that same day for pickup and installation (a weekend no less) so he could make his next event.

Maybe a better way to put this is if I can not do the work myself, I put my car in a trailer and drive from Delaware to Detroit and drop it at the Capaldi's shop. Or, for big purchases (like the 5.2L short block, heads, etcetera), I will drive out to their shop and pick everything up vs deal with other vendors.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

I am using Gen 1 timing components and engine management. I was able to get a set of some of the last Ford Performance cams for the GT350 heads that are designed for Gen 1 timing components and engine controls. SteveEspo has a 2018, so he will simply have his tune updated.

At this point for Gen 1 / Gen 2 cars, I would either use Boss or Gen 2 heads with a stock Boss or Gen 2 exhaust cam and L&M intake cam. I suspect you could make similar horsepower, but more important is the mid-range torque for corner exit, especially when you are trying to fit into a class like NASA ST2. In my opinion, for an ST2 or similar car this type of build helps increase mid-range torque and then you throttle blade tune the top end to match your average power to weight cap.

At my current weight, I can only get away with something in the area of 475 - 480 average HP based on NASA ST2 calculations with a 315 Hoosier. If you look at the above graphs for the 5.2L, I can throttle blade tune the engine and hold a flat 475 - 480 HP from 6200 through 8,000 (where the current limiter is set). In other words, the only time I would see a drop in horsepower is at corner exit (3,500 - 4,500 rpm) which is where the increased mid-range torque comes into play. Other than corner exit, my HP would absolutely constant.

Ahh, thank you for the clarifications on the controls and timing gear. What does your car weigh? I'm guessing like 3700 post-race, with those power figures?

 

[2012-Boss]

Ahh, thank you for the clarifications on the controls and timing gear. What does your car weigh? I'm guessing like 3700 post-race, with those power figures?

3655. 7.6 lb / HP based on weight (-0.4) and Hoosier tires. Unless I am making a mistake....

 

[steveespo]

3655. 7.6 lb / HP based on weight (-0.4) and Hoosier tires. Unless I am making a mistake....

I have your average HP at 491.96 (492) so you should be at 3740 unrestricted. To run 3655 you need to be 481 restricted on Hoosiers. I raced at 3760 last year and it wasn't horrible on Michelins. With the new engine on Michelins I plan on restricting average HP to 450 at 3645. 115lbs is a big difference especially tracks like Mid Ohio, Gingerman or NCM. At Watkins next fall I may ballst up and release some of the power. or uncork it all and run Michelin Pilot Sport Cups or Toyo RRs.
It's fun to have options.

 

[OPMustang Tim]

Measured the ATi damper and crank. interference was .0058", spec was .0008-.0011" way too tight. I put a Gen 3 OEM damper on. Will have the ATI for sale soon if anyone is interested. ATi does the hone work for $40 plus shipping.
Steve

That's like leave it in the Sun slip fit spec.

 

[steveespo]

That's like leave it in the Sun slip fit spec.

Yeah but at .0058 it was so tight even with anti-seize that I didn't want to mess with galling the crank snout and put a factory balancer on it. .0008-.0011" did seem kinda loose like you say. Factory was about .0035" as well as I could measure with snap gauges and micrometer. Went on with satisfying snugness.

 

[steveespo]

Some final assembly pics prior to scheduling the swap and then tuning in March. Really happy with the build and will have a very strong 5.2 for a very reasonable cost. Thanks to my main partner in crime Steve K @2012-Boss , Nick @Black Boss Leo and Craig Capaldi capaldiracing.com, Tim @OPMustang Tim , Chris Holbrook, Jim D'Amore and the people at Ford Performance/FoMoCo who make it fun to drive Mustangs on track.

 

[302BOB]

Like they say on WPLR FM crank it up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!....

 

[OPMustang Tim]

Yeah but at .0058 it was so tight even with anti-seize that I didn't want to mess with galling the crank snout and put a factory balancer on it. .0008-.0011" did seem kinda loose like you say. Factory was about .0035" as well as I could measure with snap gauges and micrometer. Went on with satisfying snugness.

I wanted to see you with a Lawnmower stone cylinder hone bringing it into spec.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Seeing these pics brings me sad memories.



Not having this part installed cost me two engines. (I think so at least..) Big thanks goes out to @Fabman for spotting my crappy MMR part with an12 fittings. Swapping to the Ford Perf. unit with an10 fittings was a big difference.

correction... MMr was an10, needs the an12

 

[2012-Boss]

I wanted to see you with a Lawnmower stone cylinder hone bringing it into spec.

Don't think that didn't get discussed - and then discarding that option as a pretty dumb idea considering the cost of these motors.

I think the next time I use an ATI on a new short block, I will make sure I get it ordered early and put with the rest of the parts for balacing, clearance verification, honing, and assembly. I would be surprised if Holbrook Racing Engines does not have the needed bore gauges on hand to check the clearances and hone as needed. The other option is to have Holbrook measure the crank diameter and then get ATI to hone the hub to the correct dimension.

 

[Fabman]

Seeing these pics brings me sad memories.

View attachment 83422

Not having this part installed cost me two engines. (I think so at least..) Big thanks goes out to @Fabman for spotting my crappy MMR part with an12 fittings. Swapping to the Ford Perf. unit with an10 fittings was a big difference.

I think you mean going from -10 to -12. Glad it worked out for you.

 

[steveespo]

I wanted to see you with a Lawnmower stone cylinder hone bringing it into spec.

Don't think I didn't think of it. I would have put it in my drill press and press vise. Not a total hack.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Seeing these pics brings me sad memories.

View attachment 83422

Not having this part installed cost me two engines. (I think so at least..) Big thanks goes out to @Fabman for spotting my crappy MMR part with an12 fittings. Swapping to the Ford Perf. unit with an10 fittings was a big difference00

Oopps Thanks Sal... yes,,, an10 to an12...

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Very interested to see how these builds dyno out (thank you Steve K for sharing your info already). Could be something on the table for me for 2024.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

@captdistraction read through this thread and look for figures from 2012-Boss which would be similar to our builds.

 

[steveespo]

@captdistraction read through this thread and look for figures from 2012-Boss which would be similar to our builds.

Drew you can share all that info with Chris too.