Suggest a manifold and throttle body combination

[GAR944]

Time to start an argument. Nothing too serious i hope.

The details are as follows.

• 2017 GT stock engine effectively, nothing that affects performance.
• Stock manifold and throttle body
• Cold air intake but that can be modified to suit whats down stream.

I'm finally looking to see what performance gains can be made with the basic upgraded manifold and throttle body etc.
I'm curious as to what manifold and size throttle body would work well for an N/A manual track car.
Had previously been keeping it to 6500 but the last track had it running the limiter into corners and having to subtly lift to avoid running the hard cut the last 50m in. So i see rpm in its future.
Last part is a ported throttle body worth anything on track.
Was checking out these and curious if anyone has an opinion on their work. https://www.solerengineering.com/ford-motor

Any comments on experience much appreciated. The most obvious upgrade is the 18+ manifold or GT350.

 

[biggsy]

Time to start an argument. Nothing too serious i hope.

The details are as follows.

• 2017 GT stock engine effectively, nothing that affects performance.
• Stock manifold and throttle body
• Cold air intake but that can be modified to suit whats down stream.

I'm finally looking to see what performance gains can be made with the basic upgraded manifold and throttle body etc.
I'm curious as to what manifold and size throttle body would work well for an N/A manual track car.
Had previously been keeping it to 6500 but the last track had it running the limiter into corners and having to subtly lift to avoid running the hard cut the last 50m in. So i see rpm in its future.
Last part is a ported throttle body worth anything on track.
Was checking out these and curious if anyone has an opinion on their work. https://www.solerengineering.com/ford-motor

Any comments on experience much appreciated. The most obvious upgrade is the 18+ manifold or GT350.

@honeybadger has experience with Soler and is currently running their TB with positive feedback. I bought a takeoff GT350 TB to send to them to do the work.

As for N/A gains, the top dog is the ported CJ manifold. The feedback I've read from that is that in order to maximize its performance, it is recommended to do cams such as L&M intake only cams and/or ported heads. Due to cost I am just going with ported GT350 manifold and Soler TB. Ford recently increased the price of the 350 manifold to about 1400 USD which is insane. I've been running a ported 18+ manifold for 5 years and its been great.

 

[GAR944]

The choices I have here seem to be 18+ which is the most cost effective. Could get a 350 imported but double your money for it landed here. I don't think there is enough difference between the 2 to justify the gains for purely bragging rights that I'm faster than the 18+ Mach 1s I'm comparing times with. Did see a review on the CJ2 manifold but the hassles of a specific TB that would probably be the only one in the country doesn't seem worth the headaches. I'm curious what others have done and how they felt about it. That and what size TB works effectively with a 5.0 and corresponding manifold. Pointless mismatching the sizes not knowing what is a restriction and what slows the air mass down too much.

 

[Swiss Boss]

I would vote for the CJ with either the Twin67 or the Monoblade throttle body

Most of the issue with the monoblade were that the the opening on the manifold was not perfectly flat and when you tightened the throttle body, it would bind and the blade would stick. Filing it down the manifold opening so it flat cured the problem.

Also the way Ford tune the throttle body is weird and if you go aftermarket make sure they provide you with the correct data or your tuner is good to tune the throttle body data. So far I've only seen data from Ford Racing, VMP and Whipple throttle bodies.

Here's what throttle body table looks like in HPTuner

HP Tuners Documentation

 

[GAR944]

I would vote for the CJ with either the Twin67 or the Monoblade throttle body

Most of the issue with the monoblade were that the the opening on the manifold was not perfectly flat and when you tightened the throttle body, it would bind and the blade would stick. Filing it down the manifold opening so it flat cured the problem.

Also the way Ford tune the throttle body is weird and if you go aftermarket make sure they provide you with the correct data or your tuner is good to tune the throttle body data. So far I've only seen data from Ford Racing, VMP and Whipple throttle bodies.

Here's what throttle body table looks like in HPTuner

HP Tuners Documentation

And yet again i get to learn something new, throttle body tuning, never would have known it was a thing.
Another rabbit hole to deep dive into. Thanks, i think. I'll let you know when i hit the bottom.

Was watching videos last night and seem to get conflicting reports on the CJ and the older Boss manifold loosing significantly against a GT until reaching the upper rpm range. The 350 also lost out in one then in another with the Ford Performance Pack 3 it gained across the board. Knew this was going to be a saga.

 

[biggsy]

@Fabman has a CJ and so does @steveespo

Maybe they can chime in

 

[GAR944]

This might help given it shows the rpm range i'm playing in. Pretty sure we got 3.55 rear ratio in Aus. Was suggested to change it but it would require using 6th which i like to avoid with the overdrive.

 

[Swiss Boss]

If you're looking for more HP, I would do long tube header first. That would give you gain across the whole RPM range. And the best part is no tune is required but you're going to get a check engine light.

The next thing is getting a tune to dial the Sparks timing tables. That's where the power is at since Ford was pretty conservative in that area but you'll need good fuel to take advantage of that.

Only do the Cobrajet if you plan on going to 7500+

 

[GAR944]

Have long tubes and 3' exhaust with aforementioned check engine light glowing happily. Have now been to 2 tracks where i'm running the stock hard cut in 5th. RPM limit increase is definitely needed. 7500 would seem like a good mental limit with a cut at 7900. I really need to analyse some data as to how much i was lifting to stay off the cut out.

 

[Swiss Boss]

Check your pedal position vs rpm when accelerating from those low rpm.
If you're not 100% pedal position means that your making too much power in that area so losing 20-30hp in that area won't be as critical

 

[GAR944]

 

[GAR944]

Check your pedal position vs rpm when accelerating from those low rpm.
If you're not 100% pedal position means that your making too much power in that area so losing 20-30hp in that area won't be as critical

I'll have a deep dive into that, makes a lot of sense.

 

[Fabman]

@Fabman has a CJ and so does @steveespo

Maybe they can chime in

 

[GAR944]

Good video. I'll throw the graphs in here just for future reference down the track.

 

[steveespo]

Cobra Jet out of the box with twin 69 mm VMP on my 2018 Gen 3. 1 7/8" ARH headers, JLT CJ CAI and full 3" exhaust.
The engine will use all the air you can give it. Di gives me the torque advantage as does the 12:1 compression over the 11:1 of the Gen 1 and 2 engines. Dyno used for ST2 compliance. Tune by Ken Osborne of OZ Tuning, 96 octane gasoline race mix. The magic is in the cam timing, car runs very cool and does not drop performance over a 30 minute session. The peak run was the last of 5 consecutive, each with a little tweak by Ken based on live logging.

 

[GAR944]

Cobra Jet out of the box with twin 69 mm VMP on my 2018 Gen 3. 1 7/8" ARH headers, JLT CJ CAI and full 3" exhaust.
The engine will use all the air you can give it. Di gives me the torque advantage as does the 12:1 compression over the 11:1 of the Gen 1 and 2 engines. Dyno used for ST2 compliance. Tune by Ken Osborne of OZ Tuning, 96 octane gasoline race mix. The magic is in the cam timing, car runs very cool and does not drop performance over a 30 minute session. The peak run was the last of 5 consecutive, each with a little tweak by Ken based on live logging.

Thanks for that Steve. I'm starting to see the benefits of the Cobra Jet once i delved into the data of my laps. I need the rpm to start with for this track especially. Time spent rolling off throttle to not hit the cutout. Grabbing another gear to then brake and then come out at a similar speed to before the change but in a higher gear. Initially i thought from the videos that it lost out too much on mid range torque but really its not huge in the rev range it lives in on track. The hp numbers above 6200 with area under the curve to 7500 really destroy the other options.
Why is it never the cheap option?

 

[Fabman]

Ported CJ for the win.

 

[GAR944]

Ported CJ for the win.

Trust you to go all in. I'm starting to believe the other guy who told me not to trust you. He also said you owe him some money.

Do you know how bad the Australian dollar is currently.

 

[steveespo]

Thanks for that Steve. I'm starting to see the benefits of the Cobra Jet once i delved into the data of my laps. I need the rpm to start with for this track especially. Time spent rolling off throttle to not hit the cutout. Grabbing another gear to then brake and then come out at a similar speed to before the change but in a higher gear. Initially i thought from the videos that it lost out too much on mid range torque but really its not huge in the rev range it lives in on track. The hp numbers above 6200 with area under the curve to 7500 really destroy the other options.
Why is it never the cheap option?

View attachment 103156

Not cheap because performance. Especially if you have transmission ratios that keep it 5500-8000 rpm

 

[Fabman]

Trust you to go all in. I'm starting to believe the other guy who told me not to trust you. He also said you owe him some money.

Do you know how bad the Australian dollar is currently.

Don't believe him.....he's just jealous.