Timing area weird noise: (not the tick, not a rattle)

[captdistraction]

New motor, now 500 miles into break in without significant issue (could use a neutral profile correction). However since I've had it running, there's been an odd noise, varying in volume with oil temperature and runtime coming from the timing cover area.

It can be subtle to very loud (enough to hear over a dual disc noisy raceclutch and exhaust). Mostly coming off revs.

The noise sounds like a whirring, whining, metallic moaning noise that follows RPM. At first I thought it had to be the water pump, but now I'm not so sure. It definitely seems like its coming from the timing cover itself. I'll test the car soon without the belt on, but I don't believe the noise to be the pump.

I'm unsure what in the timing system could make such a noise? if it were chain slack, I'd expect a rattle, worn guides maybe? Solenoids?

Here's a couple quick videos:


Timing is made up of:
new main chains
MMR crank sprocket
Boss 302/CJ main tensioners
Stock GT secondary tensioners
MMR secondary timing chains
Factory GT phasers
13+ phaser solenoids (removed the 11 and installed new fittings)
Boss 302 Cams/heads/etc

Couple videos (listen for the higher pitches, I'll try to get better video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf_U0VSTnd8 - no revving, but you can clearly hear it, almost like a buzz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msao5xlt5KM - here its not as loud, but you can hear it follow the revs, especially on revdown (listen for higher pitched noises)

 

[captdistraction]

An update:

I haven't pulled the covers yet, but I did go around the motor with a screwdriver. There's some mild clacking on the passenger side valvecover (sounds like lifters, or possibly chain related), but I didn't have anyone to press the throttle while I tested.

I did get a more clear video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKHiVaDDAhw

you can still hear it most on revdown. Its gets much louder at times but I just can't figure this one out. I'll try to get the valve covers removed tonight.

 

[Hermes]

I couldn't hear the sound clearly in the video's but if it sounds like a buzzing sound rather than a ticking sound I would suspect the timing chain / chain guides. If the sound comes in and out at specific frequencies, then again it would point to chain / guild noise. I'm a valvetrain engineer so I'm pretty familiar with lifter noise. When valve lifters get air inside them, they will produce a ticking sound [similar to fuel injector noise]. The ticking sound will be at 1/2 crank speed, something that sounds like buzzing is likely occurring several times per crank revolution. The timing chain will tend to hit harmonic resonance at certain speeds so the noise may come or go. I'm not sure if it's doing that. Deceleration vs. acceleration also determines a positive vs. negative load on the chain so again I would suspect the chain. Lifters wouldn't care if the engine was accelerating or decelerating. I would make sure the chain tensioner is working correctly and that the guides are properly aligned.

Good luck.

 

[captdistraction]

yeah, I do have a ticking lifter on the passenger side, and its about that rate you mention, however I'm not sure if that's an issue or just a little air that hadn't gotten out.

The sound is buzz'ish, a buzzy moan, higher in frequency than the motor's natural sounds (again like a old power steering pump). I did confirm that the waterpump is not the source via screwdriver-to-ear check

Thanks for that info, its very useful to this process. Sounds like my best bet is to get that timing cover off and look.

 

[captdistraction]

So I took the covers off and couldn't find much. The cam lobes all look great, the secondary chain and tensioners look fine on both sides. I can very slightly pull up on the chain on the secondary tensioner but not enough to relieve pressure against the guide so they are nice and tight even without the tensioner pumped up.

I took the belt off and spun all the pulleys and all are whisper quiet.

I checked each lifter/follower and the unloaded ones can move very slightly unpumped and I believe that to be normal and expected. Can't see much of the main chain yet it appears to be tight and appropriately tensioned.













I guess next step is the front cover. There's no possibility oil pump or main bearing(s) could contribute to noise like that is there?

 

[VoodooBoss]

Does your engine have the upgraded belt? Mine made noise like a clicking sound and was upgraded under warranty. There's a TSB on it.

 

[captdistraction]

no, still uses the original belt. I thought the upgrade belt was just on the AC side with all those crazy pullies?

I do have a boss alternator kit and idler pulley along with a fresh belt and new crank damper. The water pump and tensioner are the only original items from my GT motor.

 

[CrossBoss]

Does your engine have the upgraded belt? Mine made noise like a clicking sound and was upgraded under warranty. There's a TSB on it.

Looks like a winner!

 

[VoodooBoss]

I can't remember exactly what it was but it involved the stretchy belt so whatever it's connected to. :

 

[captdistraction]

That's the ac system, which my car lacks unfortunately. I did see that update on drews car, what a mess

 

[CrossBoss]

I can't remember exactly what it was but it involved the stretchy belt so whatever it's connected to. :

Tensioner a are known to be noisey and even clicky.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

He doesn't have belt noise. It sounds like a buzzsaw after a good rev.

 

[BigTaco]

Funky crank pulley that is on it's way out? ???

 

[captdistraction]

Pulled the belt and ran the motor to warm, but noise persists. Rules out the FEAD belt system. It definitely starts once the water temps reach 140 or so.

I don't think it's the crank damper

 

[TMSBOSS]

I know this sounds strange.....but. I had a T-Bird years ago which had issues with a noise in the front of the motor. Pinching off water flow through the hoses stopped the noise. Turned out the noise was caused by a head gasket leak. The air leaking into the system would resonate and cause one hell,of a noise. Clamp off the hose and the noise stopped.

With the noise starting after a certain temp, possibly when water starts to flow through the thermostat, you may have a silk are issue.

I hope not.

Head gaskets fixed my problem.

 

[captdistraction]

How crazy. I hope that isn't an issue on this motor

 

[captdistraction]

I've listened to dozens of timing noise videos and nothing really seems to sound the same outside a F150 video that had a similar whine/moan to it though very audible at idle (3.5L).

I've heard oil pump gears be mentioned, phasers, etc. I'll pull the oil pan plug tonight and look for excessive metal fuzz/shavings.

Saturday I'll have some helpers to take a look at the car but still at a total loss. I can pull the motor and send it back to the builder, but I really don't want to go down that road unless I must. Its a bummer to being so ready for track season and yet so far away from being able to go.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

@captdistraction What about replacing the thermostat itself along with the water pump? You mentioned it seems to be more pronounced above 140*F temps.

Probably $150 throwing money at the problem but it's worth a shot.

 

[captdistraction]

well, running it without the belt ruled out the waterpump. I could replace the thermostat but I'm not sure its in the noisepath. We'll check it out saturday. Maybe getting under the car will reveal more.

 

[captdistraction]

Went over it again with a screwdriver top and bottom but can't tell at idle. Once it's warm it really makes noise though. Drove it around and it was fine though my water leak is picking up so a project to track that down.

The pan plug did have some metal on it but what i would consider mostly normal. The sample of oil I captured was mostly clear but had lots of stuff in it, again not sure how big an issue on a new motor or a sample taken from the bottom of the pan (additionally the copper color may have been from the crush washer or the coating on the exterior of the pan)

So no closer.

Pics:
Plug


Oil sample in water container I had sliced open: