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Toe Heel Braking

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I have no problem with H+T using my stock pedals. One trick you need to learn is to rotate your entire leg and not just your ankle. You just need to catch about 1/2" of the gas pedal to get a good blip. It's not easy to practice on the street and is best learned on track. It will definitely save wear and tear on your tranny and cut down on the chance of rear wheel lockup. This video will give you an example of what a heel and toe downshift should sound like (as demonstrated by a much LESS than pro driver!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeixvGMVBl8
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
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Heel and toe downshifting/braking ---- lots of good info here and practice is the key. The setup in the car is actually quite good and it does force you to concentrate on the matter at hand ( or foot,ha ), but I would also say that though Chuck is correct that is is best practiced on the track, there do seem to be quite a few planned residential areas that have not had homes developed there yet, and that is a good place to practice. Speed is not the initial issue, it is getting the technique down.
 
What Bill said. Also, when practicing, throw out any ideas of late braking. Brake early so you definitely have it done in a straight line. I use warm up laps to refresh my memory on how to do it properly, as they are low speed and you (hopefully) don't have Speed Racer on your butt to hit you if you brake early.

Another place to practice is the ol' highway. There are times of day and night when most highways are pretty empty. They also tend to be straight. You can do it about like how you bed brakes, there doesn't have to be a turn in front of you.

Another option is in the hilly areas, you shouldn't be going more than 5/10 or so on the street anyways so just turn it down another notch to give yourself a safety margin and brake early. Assuming there are not other cars around.

Another thing to bear in mind is that each car needs a different amount of blip, as do different gears, so it is good to practice it in different gears once you get the basics down and practice it in the car you will be driving at the track if you can. For instance, my E30 requires a pretty big stab at the gas because the gears are pretty wide and the motor is not super fast reving. I usually punch it really quick but almost to the floor. The Boss requires a lot less as the gears are so narrow and the motor is more energetic.
 

Sesshomurai

Thanks for all the helpful tips guys. I have size 13 feet and tried different combinations of HT, TH and clown shoes.

For me, I found braking with the ball of my foot underneath the big toe and "blipping" the gas with my pinky toe(s) seems to work ok so far. I have a wide foot so it makes "rolling" my foot over to the gas fairly easy while keeping pressure on the break.
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
And just to be clear, I'm not suggesting practicing on the street in any form of traffic. Your car should be alone or at least nobody anywhere close or behind you. I'm sure you're using common sense with regard to safety. I just work the practice into my daily driving, without going to full brake pressure or late braking.

PeteInCT said:
With those you can hit the clutch, brake and gas all at the same time ! ;D

It's now called Heel/Arch/Toe or 'HAT' shifting for short. :D
 
I remember some car magazine calling it Italian Tapdancing because Lambo pedals are hard to do it on. I don't know why you would need to do it on an automatic though
 
CaliMR said:
I remember some car magazine calling it Italian Tapdancing because Lambo pedals are hard to do it on. I don't know why you would need to do it on an automatic though

Here is somthing for you guys to think about and do for me. I heal and toe but it is hard because of a knee problem. My WC car we had a bike brake cable attached to the shifter and the other end to the throttle body,you just used the grip for the throttle. I made down shifting and trail braking sweet. Here is the problem, How do you do it with the fly by wire and all the throttle sensors. Beats the hell out of me. I thought of a push reostat.
 

PeteInCT

#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
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I have bad knees also which makes it difficult to change the angle of my leg to invoke H/T. The Sullivan pedals help because all it takes is a small roll of the ankle with my legs in their normal positions.
 
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I double clutch heel toe everywhere even in town... I used to use the easy method now only use the real man's method ( ahahah) so here is your definitive HEEL TOE methods :

there a 2 methods:

1) the REV MATCH ONLY heel toe method :
- brake with right toe keep it there
-push in clutch
- blip throttle while shifting to lower gear
- release clutch
-> that only gives you a smoother transitional feel ie, not jerky downshit
= NOT TRUE double clutch heel toe.

2) the DOUBLE CLUTCH heel toe method :
- brake with right toe keep it there
-push in clutch
- shift to neutral
- LET GO off clutch while blipping throttle with right heel
- push in clutch
- shift to lower gear
- release clutch
= THE REAL METHOD, takes longer to master, and you'll look like your have ants in your pants ( legs are dancing)
but this method rev matches AND SAVES THE SYNCHROS on older gear boxes.
now we do not need that real method since its not like an old gear box that needs this method to save on wear and tear...
with that said it is a GREAT HABIT to have since you can then drive anything with that: vintage race cars, 18 wheeler trucks .. anything.

thats what I do , and its extremely addictive when performed right and gives enormous satisfaction and pride XD
and it keeps you real busy , you never get bored even at 35 mph :D

PS 1: you dont need special pedals, just the right shoes flat bottom, flexible with good grip and feel. I tried converse but actual feel is terrible and soles are too soft, I use so unknown von dutch low tops whatever, and sometimes simple low tops pumas. you want a shoe that lets your ankle flex as blip with heel while braking with toe requires flexing ( feels like spraining your ankle but youll get over it)

PS 2: at first you will feel that it takes to 30 seconds to shift, but practice makes perfect and soon enough, you'll be ' dancing ' too .

hope this helps, and practice on a beater car first !
 

TMSBOSS

Spending my pension on car parts and track fees.
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jim woodruff said:
CaliMR said:
I remember some car magazine calling it Italian Tapdancing because Lambo pedals are hard to do it on. I don't know why you would need to do it on an automatic though

Here is somthing for you guys to think about and do for me. I heal and toe but it is hard because of a knee problem. My WC car we had a bike brake cable attached to the shifter and the other end to the throttle body,you just used the grip for the throttle. I made down shifting and trail braking sweet. Here is the problem, How do you do it with the fly by wire and all the throttle sensors. Beats the hell out of me. I thought of a push reostat.

Jim

Could avoid messing with the electronics by connecting the cable mentioned above to the throttle pedal?
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
TMSBOSS said:
Could avoid messing with the electronics by connecting the cable mentioned above to the throttle pedal?

Nice solution! Not sure where I would connect it... I don't know what the throttle signal is, but I think a parallel bypass with a rheostat and moment switch N/O might do the trick.


rom said:
I double clutch heel toe everywhere even in town... I used to use the easy method now only use the real man's method ( ahahah) so here is your definitive HEEL TOE methods :

there a 2 methods:

1) the REV MATCH ONLY heel toe method :
- brake with right toe keep it there
-push in clutch
- blip throttle while shifting to lower gear
- release clutch
-> that only gives you a smoother transitional feel ie, not jerky downshit
= NOT TRUE double clutch heel toe.

2) the DOUBLE CLUTCH heel toe method :
- brake with right toe keep it there
-push in clutch
- shift to neutral
- LET GO off clutch while blipping throttle with right heel
- push in clutch
- shift to lower gear
- release clutch
= THE REAL METHOD, takes longer to master, and you'll look like your have ants in your pants ( legs are dancing)
but this method rev matches AND SAVES THE SYNCHROS on older gear boxes.
now we do not need that real method since its not like an old gear box that needs this method to save on wear and tear...
with that said it is a GREAT HABIT to have since you can then drive anything with that: vintage race cars, 18 wheeler trucks .. anything.

thats what I do , and its extremely addictive when performed right and gives enormous satisfaction and pride XD
and it keeps you real busy , you never get bored even at 35 mph :D

PS 1: you dont need special pedals, just the right shoes flat bottom, flexible with good grip and feel. I tried converse but actual feel is terrible and soles are too soft, I use so unknown von dutch low tops whatever, and sometimes simple low tops pumas. you want a shoe that lets your ankle flex as blip with heel while braking with toe requires flexing ( feels like spraining your ankle but youll get over it)

PS 2: at first you will feel that it takes to 30 seconds to shift, but practice makes perfect and soon enough, you'll be ' dancing ' too .

hope this helps, and practice on a beater car first !

Absorootly agree on the double clutch. For me, I have to blip a little higher to make it single rev. I used to double rev, but that's only because I learned to do it years ago on my brother's 4 bangers. Double rev is nicer for show since you can hear it...Single rev done right, you can't tell it's double clutch unless you're taking video.

At the track, I have a bad habit of only using the double clutch on the 3-2.

And rom, your typo above gave me a good laugh this morning.

Also forgot to mention about the clutchless shifting that you can upshift too, but you have to wait for the revs to come down on their own to enter the higher gear. Takes way too much time, but maybe this is the solution to all the lockout issues. har har. :D
 

Sesshomurai

Good stuff guys.

So can someone post each gear rev/rpm ranges please? So I know when to complete a shift post-blip? I'm still new to this motor/gearbox. It's very high-revving for a V8. :)
 
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0
ahahah Grant , I didnt spell check myself, it is pretty funny but was unintended, I guess Im no Jay Leno :D

you bring about double Revving (double blipping), that's yet another method I didnt mention because I never learned that one, I was explaining double Clutching (you end up depressing the clutch twice for every single downshift )
I've always been curious about the double revving because it seems to be what's going on in the famous Bullit Chase. the chase being over recorded I didnt know what to think of that , other than maybe he had a slow gear box and engine inertia was so great that he had to blip it twice while looking for the lower gear (Im only guessing)

can you explain it ?

PS: if theres a way to make my downshiFts even more so complicated, Im interested :)

rom

Grant 302 said:
TMSBOSS said:
Could avoid messing with the electronics by connecting the cable mentioned above to the throttle pedal?

Nice solution! Not sure where I would connect it... I don't know what the throttle signal is, but I think a parallel bypass with a rheostat and moment switch N/O might do the trick.


rom said:
I double clutch heel toe everywhere even in town... I used to use the easy method now only use the real man's method ( ahahah) so here is your definitive HEEL TOE methods :

there a 2 methods:

1) the REV MATCH ONLY heel toe method :
- brake with right toe keep it there
-push in clutch
- blip throttle while shifting to lower gear
- release clutch
-> that only gives you a smoother transitional feel ie, not jerky downshit
= NOT TRUE double clutch heel toe.

2) the DOUBLE CLUTCH heel toe method :
- brake with right toe keep it there
-push in clutch
- shift to neutral
- LET GO off clutch while blipping throttle with right heel
- push in clutch
- shift to lower gear
- release clutch
= THE REAL METHOD, takes longer to master, and you'll look like your have ants in your pants ( legs are dancing)
but this method rev matches AND SAVES THE SYNCHROS on older gear boxes.
now we do not need that real method since its not like an old gear box that needs this method to save on wear and tear...
with that said it is a GREAT HABIT to have since you can then drive anything with that: vintage race cars, 18 wheeler trucks .. anything.

thats what I do , and its extremely addictive when performed right and gives enormous satisfaction and pride XD
and it keeps you real busy , you never get bored even at 35 mph :D

PS 1: you dont need special pedals, just the right shoes flat bottom, flexible with good grip and feel. I tried converse but actual feel is terrible and soles are too soft, I use so unknown von dutch low tops whatever, and sometimes simple low tops pumas. you want a shoe that lets your ankle flex as blip with heel while braking with toe requires flexing ( feels like spraining your ankle but youll get over it)

PS 2: at first you will feel that it takes to 30 seconds to shift, but practice makes perfect and soon enough, you'll be ' dancing ' too .

hope this helps, and practice on a beater car first !

Absorootly agree on the double clutch. For me, I have to blip a little higher to make it single rev. I used to double rev, but that's only because I learned to do it years ago on my brother's 4 bangers. Double rev is nicer for show since you can hear it...Single rev done right, you can't tell it's double clutch unless you're taking video.

At the track, I have a bad habit of only using the double clutch on the 3-2.

And rom, your typo above gave me a good laugh this morning.

Also forgot to mention about the clutchless shifting that you can upshift too, but you have to wait for the revs to come down on their own to enter the higher gear. Takes way too much time, but maybe this is the solution to all the lockout issues. har har. :D
 
Bled my clutch again, took the car out, and played around with the double clutch a bit. Fun, and I think I kind of figured out the rhythm though I'm still really slow and have to think about it while I do it so I'll stick to regular h-t in the Boss for now. I'll practice on my video game wheel, it has a shifter and clutch.

Also I was thinking about how some people have issues with the spacing of the pedals, and if my feet were not so wide I can see how it is an issue. The gas pedal is so short you can't really use your heel unless you really crank your foot over, but I tend to use my pinky toe in this car. In cars with floor mounted gas pedals (my racecar for instance), I use my heel. So if you guys are having trouble reaching then try toe-toe shifting ;)
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
rom said:
ahahah Grant , I didnt spell check myself, it is pretty funny but was unintended, I guess Im no Jay Leno :D

you bring about double Revving (double blipping), that's yet another method I didnt mention because I never learned that one, I was explaining double Clutching (you end up depressing the clutch twice for every single downshift )
I've always been curious about the double revving because it seems to be what's going on in the famous Bullit Chase. the chase being over recorded I didnt know what to think of that , other than maybe he had a slow gear box and engine inertia was so great that he had to blip it twice while looking for the lower gear (Im only guessing)

can you explain it ?

PS: if theres a way to make my downshiFts even more so complicated, Im interested :)

rom

All you have to do is treat going into N and the lower gear separately, like they are both single rev downshifts. The second rev is usually a smaller blip to maintain the revs on a lower inertia engine, such as one that has a lightened flywheel.
 

Sesshomurai

CaliMR said:
...
.....but I tend to use my pinky toe in this car.
....

Yeah, I found that with my wide feet, this works fairly well.
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
darreng505 said:
Good stuff guys.

So can someone post each gear rev/rpm ranges please? So I know when to complete a shift post-blip? I'm still new to this motor/gearbox. It's very high-revving for a V8. :)

I don't know if that's really anything useful. Most of the gears are about a .7 ratio difference, making the rev difference about 40% higher in a downshift. So at 3k RPM in 4th, you need to bump the revs up to about 4,200 RPM or so to hit 3rd while maintaining the same speed. With heel toe, you are braking and the relative revs required are changing very quickly. From a practical standpoint, you need to just do it and adjust your blips and you'll know when you under/over rev.
 
168
0
thanks Grant, seems like a double rev match :) ( ie: you blip while clutch is pushed in twice) ?
 

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