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In the pan, as it should be.
That’s what the bearings see.
Depending on the oil cooler arrangement, the oil would go through the cooler before going to the bearings, no? I think most of the sandwhich plate setups I have seen show the oil pumping through the cooler before making it's way to the engine.

And one can calculate (with a pretty reasonable degree of accuracy) the temperature drop across their oil cooler if given BTU's, thus, if you know the oil inlet temperature for the cooler, you can come to a reasonable conclusion of the outlet temperature and vice versa.

With that being said, I think there are many places you can put the oil temperature sensor, you just have to adjust your temperature expectations accordingly. IE, 230°F on cooler outlet would potentially be cause for concern (assuming 50°F delta across cooler), whereas 230°F in the pan would not IMO, since the oil in the pan is oil which has not been cooled.
 
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Depending on the oil cooler arrangement, the oil would go through the cooler before going to the bearings, no? I think most of the sandwhich plate setups I have seen show the oil pumping through the cooler before making it's way to the engine.

And one can calculate (with a pretty reasonable degree of accuracy) the temperature drop across their oil cooler if given BTU's, thus, if you know the oil inlet temperature for the cooler, you can come to a reasonable conclusion of the outlet temperature and vice versa.

With that being said, I think there are many places you can put the oil temperature sensor, you just have to adjust your temperature expectations accordingly. IE, 230°F on cooler outlet would potentially be cause for concern (assuming 50°F delta across cooler), whereas 230°F in the pan would not IMO, since the oil in the pan is oil which has not been cooled.
He is saying to pull oil temp readings from the pan as that will be the most accurate temp that the engine is seeing.
 
5,768
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Pleasanton: 1/2 way between Sonoma and Laguna Seca
Depending on the oil cooler arrangement, the oil would go through the cooler before going to the bearings, no? I think most of the sandwhich plate setups I have seen show the oil pumping through the cooler before making it's way to the engine.

And one can calculate (with a pretty reasonable degree of accuracy) the temperature drop across their oil cooler if given BTU's, thus, if you know the oil inlet temperature for the cooler, you can come to a reasonable conclusion of the outlet temperature and vice versa.

With that being said, I think there are many places you can put the oil temperature sensor, you just have to adjust your temperature expectations accordingly. IE, 230°F on cooler outlet would potentially be cause for concern (assuming 50°F delta across cooler), whereas 230°F in the pan would not IMO, since the oil in the pan is oil which has not been cooled.
I don't use a sandwich deal, too much restriction in the ones I've seen. I use the Ford Performance remote filter bypass adapter for gen 2/3.
Its way nicer internally than anything I've seen and different than the gen 1's. I use a remote filter housing that has super smooth inlet and outlet passages and -12 lines throughout. I'm an old stock car guy from the 70's, 80's and 90's so oil temp is always taken at the pan.
The oil in the pan is the oil that was just squeezed through the bearings so that's literally what the bearings see....so that's what I need to know.
Yes, you can take temps and pressures from several places but temp in the pan and pressure at the block is the constant that I have always used.
 
5,768
6,908
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He is saying to pull oil temp readings from the pan as that will be the most accurate temp that the engine is seeing.
Yes, this exactly. ^^^
Let me add this caveat:
I am not a professional engine builder though I have built a ton of racing engines over the many decades.
I am definitely no expert and my knowledge base is 30 years old, so there may be new ways of doing things that I am not aware of....that being said, I have always had and continue to have good success with my methods. As soon as better information comes to me I'll change my ways but so far we're doing pretty good.
 
5,768
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Let me add one more thing because I know people are taking water temps all over the place.
I always take that temp as it leaves the block.
I put a sensor in the upper radiator hose because that is the average temp that the motor sees, so that's what I need to know.
I vent everything back to the surge tank so no air pockets. No air pockets, no steam. No steam, no cracked heads. Works well.
 

steveespo

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I don't use a sandwich deal, too much restriction in the ones I've seen. I use the Ford Performance remote filter bypass adapter for gen 2/3.
Its way nicer internally than anything I've seen and different than the gen 1's. I use a remote filter housing that has super smooth inlet and outlet passages and -12 lines throughout. I'm an old stock car guy from the 70's, 80's and 90's so oil temp is always taken at the pan.
The oil in the pan is the oil that was just squeezed through the bearings so that's literally what the bearings see....so that's what I need to know.
Yes, you can take temps and pressures from several places but temp in the pan and pressure at the block is the constant that I have always used.
I take oil temp as it leaves the pump before it enters the filter. To me that is the hottest the oil will be. It has left the pan and gone through the pump. Bearings are seeing the cooled oil from the cooler and are then heated through that friction load. The real hot spots are the oils that are squirted on the valve springs and piston bottoms.
 
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I take oil temp as it leaves the pump before it enters the filter. To me that is the hottest the oil will be. It has left the pan and gone through the pump. Bearings are seeing the cooled oil from the cooler and are then heated through that friction load. The real hot spots are the oils that are squirted on the valve springs and piston bottoms.
That’s where I get pressure from.
All the oil that squeezes through the bearings, sprays on the valve springs, bounces off the crank etc ends up in the pan right after doing it’s job. That’s where I’d expect it to be the hottest.
 
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5,768
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I take oil temp as it leaves the pump before it enters the filter. To me that is the hottest the oil will be. It has left the pan and gone through the pump. Bearings are seeing the cooled oil from the cooler and are then heated through that friction load. The real hot spots are the oils that are squirted on the valve springs and piston bottoms.
Yeah, I guess you’re right, the heated oil in the pan is further heated in the pump, so that oil is probably a little hotter. Regardless, what matters is consistency. Having a reliable place to get the temp and making sure it’s stable.
 
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Every aftermarket race pan I’ve ever seen has a fitting for a temp sender….that’s gotta mean something.
 

steveespo

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Every aftermarket race pan I’ve ever seen has a fitting for a temp sender….that’s gotta mean something.
Only way to know for sure is to put a temp sensor in the filter block. You should have two available ports. That would prove either one of our theories.
 
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Only way to know for sure is to put a temp sensor in the filter block. You should have two available ports. That would prove either one of our theories.
I don't think we disagree actually. The oil in the pan is reheated some small amount by the pump, yes....but how is that helpful?
That oil goes straight to the filter and then the cooler to be cooled so no part of the motor ever sees that hotter oil so how is that useful?
I would think if you were going to pick up temp after the pump it would be better to measure it after the cooler so you know what temp the oil is going INTO the motor.
Since the oil in the pan is what goes through the pump, into the filter, through the cooler and then through the motor, through the bearings, squirters, valve springs etc. back into the pan....THAT is the actual oil temp that the motor has seen, that would be the oil that tells you the most about what's going on in the motor. THAT is where I want the sensor, to tell me how the whole system is working....not just one hot spot that gives me an artificially elevated number.
All that said, I think as long as you don't see stupid high numbers or rapid heating of the oil it probably doesn't make much difference where you put it.
 
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steveespo

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I don't think we disagree actually. The oil in the pan is reheated some small amount by the pump, yes....but how is that helpful?
That oil goes straight to the filter and then the cooler to be cooled so no part of the motor ever sees that hotter oil so how is that useful?
I would think if you were going to pick up temp after the pump it would be better to measure it after the cooler so you know what temp the oil is going INTO the motor.
Since the oil in the pan is what goes through the pump, into the filter, through the cooler and then through the motor, through the bearings, squirters, valve springs etc. back into the pan....THAT is the actual oil temp that the motor has seen, that would be the oil that tells you the most about what's going on in the motor. THAT is where I want the sensor, to tell me how the whole system is working....not just one hot spot that gives me an artificially elevated number.
All that said, I think as long as you don't see stupid high numbers or rapid heating of the oil it probably doesn't make much difference where you put it.
Not to argue with you Sal but two final points. Where I am picking up the temp there is a constant flow of the hottest oil. A sensor in the sump could POSSIBLY be uncovered and show artificially low readings. Not saying this is the case but the reason I question it is because a Coyote turning 7500-8000 rpm for a race distance with 85 degree ambient temps with an oil temp of 210 degrees is just not heard of. My gauge actuals with a Setrab 960 and -12 lines are 245-250. With the previous 948 and -10 lines they were 250-270. Everyone I run with sees between 240-280 F. The stupid ECU calculation thinks my oil is 275-295 but that is a Gen 3 car problem. Anyway your engine is fine in any case.
Steve
 
175
165
CA
I don't think we disagree actually. The oil in the pan is reheated some small amount by the pump, yes....but how is that helpful?
That oil goes straight to the filter and then the cooler to be cooled so no part of the motor ever sees that hotter oil so how is that useful?
I would think if you were going to pick up temp after the pump it would be better to measure it after the cooler so you know what temp the oil is going INTO the motor.
Since the oil in the pan is what goes through the pump, into the filter, through the cooler and then through the motor, through the bearings, squirters, valve springs etc. back into the pan....THAT is the actual oil temp that the motor has seen, that would be the oil that tells you the most about what's going on in the motor. THAT is where I want the sensor, to tell me how the whole system is working....not just one hot spot that gives me an artificially elevated number.
All that said, I think as long as you don't see stupid high numbers or rapid heating of the oil it probably doesn't make much difference where you put it.

Oh ya, I definitely agree in wanting to measure the temp of the oil which is actually going into the engine.

If one wants to see how their entire system is working, it doesn't matter where you place the sensor. Excessive oil temperature can be deduced no matter where you put the sensor, whether that be in the pan, after the cooler, etc.

Scenario One, Temperature Sensor in Sump:

Lets say your sump temp is 240°F. Depending on the BTU's of your cooler, your ambient temperature and your average speeds, you could assume 30°F drop across the cooler. So that would mean the oil which your engine is seeing is 210°F. It also means that your oil is picking up 30°F of heat while making it's journey throughout the engine.

Scenario Two, Temperature Sensor After Cooler:

Lets say your post-cooler temps are 210°F, and you have a heat exchanger which drops oil temp 30°F. You can assume with reasonable accuracy that the oil in the sump is, on average, 240°F.


I have my temperature sensor mounted after the cooler. I sized my cooler to drop oil temps 50°F on a 100°F day at an average speed of 70mph using 5W50wt oil. I have my oil temperature alarm set to 220°F, so, in my case, ~270°F in the pan.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way of doing it, but I do think one needs to realize that the location of their sensor will determine what safe/unsafe temperatures will be.
 
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Pleasanton: 1/2 way between Sonoma and Laguna Seca
Oh ya, I definitely agree in wanting to measure the temp of the oil which is actually going into the engine.

If one wants to see how their entire system is working, it doesn't matter where you place the sensor. Excessive oil temperature can be deduced no matter where you put the sensor, whether that be in the pan, after the cooler, etc.

Scenario One, Temperature Sensor in Sump:

Lets say your sump temp is 240°F. Depending on the BTU's of your cooler, your ambient temperature and your average speeds, you could assume 30°F drop across the cooler. So that would mean the oil which your engine is seeing is 210°F. It also means that your oil is picking up 30°F of heat while making it's journey throughout the engine.

Scenario Two, Temperature Sensor After Cooler:

Lets say your post-cooler temps are 210°F, and you have a heat exchanger which drops oil temp 30°F. You can assume with reasonable accuracy that the oil in the sump is, on average, 240°F.


I have my temperature sensor mounted after the cooler. I sized my cooler to drop oil temps 50°F on a 100°F day at an average speed of 70mph using 5W50wt oil. I have my oil temperature alarm set to 220°F, so, in my case, ~270°F in the pan.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way of doing it, but I do think one needs to realize that the location of their sensor will determine what safe/unsafe temperatures will be.
I think we actually all agree on all points.
You can take it anywhere and the numbers will vary depending on the location.

According to the Ford performance manual the sensor is located in the return side of the fluid path, so the connection on the motor is out to the cooler on the bottom and returns to the motor on the top. I expect this is where most people are getting temp, which is AFTER the cooler.

I believe I've also provided enough evidence that I am indeed experiencing 210* oil in the pan, which is where I prefer to take it for the reasons I have stated.
(Race pan manufacturers provide a bung there for the sensor for this very reason)

@Mad Hatter has an identical engine to mine, built by the same guy (Shaun @ AED) with all the same internal oil mods that I have.
He's copied my oil cooler/plumbing setup exactly and is also experiencing 210* oil temps.

Now here's the kicker...
He's taking temps at the motor after the cooler, just like everybody else, yet he's still seeing much cooler oil temps.
My take on this is that the more efficient you make the system, the less heat you put into the oil.
The less heat you make, the less you have to reject.
There are ways to do this, and we're doing it in two different countries on two different fuels. (e85 and 98 octane)

I have reached out to Shaun to shed some light on this....I'm sure he'll have something valuable to say.
 
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Not to argue with you Sal but two final points. Where I am picking up the temp there is a constant flow of the hottest oil. A sensor in the sump could POSSIBLY be uncovered and show artificially low readings.
I'm not arguing, I explaining my thought process and relaying my real world experience.
There is virtually no way the sensor is being uncovered, just not possible and even if it was it couldn't possibly be for long enough to affect the temp gauge so that's a non starter. I am seeing what I am seeing and now you've seen it too. The question is how am I doing it and why is it working.
 
175
165
CA
I think we actually all agree on all points.
You can take it anywhere and the numbers will vary depending on the location.

According to the Ford performance manual the sensor is located in the return side of the fluid path, so the connection on the motor is out to the cooler on the bottom and returns to the motor on the top. I expect this is where most people are getting temp, which is AFTER the cooler.

I believe I've also provided enough evidence that I am indeed experiencing 210* oil in the pan, which is where I prefer to take it for the reasons I have stated.
(Race pan manufacturers provide a bung there for the sensor for this very reason)

@Mad Hatter has an identical engine to mine, built by the same guy (Shaun @ AED) with all the same internal oil mods that I have.
He's copied my oil cooler/plumbing setup exactly and is also experiencing 210* oil temps.

Now here's the kicker...
He's taking temps at the motor after the cooler, just like everybody else, yet he's still seeing much cooler oil temps.
My take on this is that the more efficient you make the system, the less heat you put into the oil.
The less heat you make, the less you have to reject.
There are ways to do this, and we're doing it in two different countries on two different fuels. (e85 and 98 octane)

I have reached out to Shaun to shed some light on this....I'm sure he'll have something valuable to say.
Let us know what Shaun says, that is definitely interesting.

Are you both running the same weight oils?
 
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Let us know what Shaun says, that is definitely interesting.

Are you both running the same weight oils?
5/50 for me, I expect @Mad Hatter is running the same but I'll let him answer for himself.

*****************************

This just in from Shaun:

From: Sal Molinare <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 2, 2022 9:16 AM
To: Shaun <[email protected]>
Subject: Oil

Where’s the best place to get oil temp?

In the pan or at the block?
Before or after the cooler?
What do you think the delta would be between the pan and the block just after the pump?
How much heat does the pump add?

-Sal


[email protected] <[email protected]>
To:'Sal Molinare'

Fri, Dec 2 at 10:48 AM
Hmm… Do you want to log the hottest the oil gets or the coolest?
Back of the head would be the hottest. There are threaded plugs you can remove and install a sensor if you have the room behind the engine.
Coolest would be after the cooler, but I don’t think that would be very accurate on what temp the oil is in the engine. Oil pan would be fine, that would be the oil temp before it’s picked up and pumped thru the engine.

Shaun the ‘Tuna’ @ AED
WWW.AEDHP.COM
(916)715-7569



I rest my case.....now back to our regularly scheduled program:
Track Vids.
 
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This thread will make me change the location of my oil temp sensor.. LOL.

But I dont really care about the temp going into the engine, I would rather simply know the hottest oil (coming out of the bearings etc) , and keep that temp under control. Any amount of cooling from that point is just a bonus.
 
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steveespo

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One last thing I promise. 210F max oil temp is too cool, especially if running E85 which will cause a cooler running engine for a variety of reasons. 210 is below boiling and water does get into oil through many ways mostly being carried by ethanol which has a strong affinity to it, and just from the humidity in the air. It is desired to be boiled off in the oil above 212 of course. Last post on it and if you and Shaun are comfortable with it that's good. Cup engines run oil temps at 265F by the way.
 

Mad Hatter

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5/50 for me, I expect @Mad Hatter is running the same but I'll let him answer for himself.
Mobil 1 5W50 here for me! Am curious to see my temps on the 11th since we are in the middle of a heat wave with track temps +100F. My last race was with temps much lower then that.
 

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