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Watson Roll Bar Question

119
79
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
Atlanta, GA
Buy good racing seats. Not sure what Ford is selling but you really need a good racing seat. If they're just the Recaros similar to what comes on production cars forget it. They were the only option (beside PP1) on my car and it was a waste of money. Once you get up into the 1.5 g range you're going to need good racing seats.
Thank you, I’m researching seats. My previous track car (944) had a fully welded cage with OMP full containment seats. They were great and fit me well. I’m learning the balance between keeping the car streetable and maximizing safety on track. Really appreciate all the feedback!!
 
119
79
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
Atlanta, GA
I went with the Maximum Motorsports 4 pt bar with welded in harness bar and diagonal. The rear bars mount to the wheel wells, not through the trunk. You can retain the rear seats if you want. I would not sit anyone back there, but the seats maintain more stock look and absorb a lot of road noise. Seats are Cobra Motorsports Imola GT with Schroth Flexi 6 point harnesses. It has been the best money spent of the car for track use. Prior to the seats/harnesses I was coming home from the track with bruised knees from trying to hold myself in place. Now the seats/harnesses hold me in place and I can focus more on driving.
Thanks, I’ll check out the Maximum Motorsports setup.
Cheers
 
119
79
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
Atlanta, GA
Buy good racing seats. Not sure what Ford is selling but you really need a good racing seat. If they're just the Recaros similar to what comes on production cars forget it. They were the only option (beside PP1) on my car and it was a waste of money. Once you get up into the 1.5 g range you're going to need good racing seats.
Thank you, I previously ran OMP HTE XL seats in a dedicated track car (944). The visibility with the halo wouldn’t work for street use. However, I definitely agree a proper seat is a must if upgrading from stock. I live in Atlanta and Discovery Parts has many seats on display. I’ll go see what fits my size and provides visibility for occasional street use.
Cheers
 
119
79
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
Atlanta, GA
Yes. A 4pt rearcage adds harness bar for better shoulder belt angles and shorter belt paths Increase safety And improved Hans function. Also adds capability of seat back bracing. Stiffer fixed seats with increase containment increase safety. Better seat retention allows you to feel car better with light hands on wheel reduce lap times.
Thank you Bob, I fully agree and appreciate the feedback!
 
Thank you, I’m researching seats. My previous track car (944) had a fully welded cage with OMP full containment seats. They were great and fit me well. I’m learning the balance between keeping the car streetable and maximizing safety on track. Really appreciate all the feedback!!

There In lies the problem. Streetability and many aspects of track safety are mutually exclusive. So just do as much safety as you can stand on the street.
 
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533
362
sfo
There’s a good Ross Bentley podcast from awhile back where he interviews the engineer that designed the Simpson Hybrid S. (Which I have.) He said that the belts are specifically designed to work together with the airbag and the rest of the car. There is the potential for one to be too tightly restrained with a full harness thus making the airbag ineffectual or even dangerous because it explodes too fast. An interesting topic- I am no engineer but he convinced me!
Good luck with your cage install.
I call BS on that. Safety is a system. There must be more to the conversation there since we are mixing systems and there must be some misunderstanding on what was being said. 3pt safety systems work up to about 50G impacts. Racing safety systems work at recorded 150G levels. A key tenant in racing car safety systems is seat retention. You can't be too tight in your seat if you can breath.

Without more context it is impossible to say what was going on in that podcast but most likely there is a misunderstanding. There are a few things to note:
3 pt systems don't have a problem with basilar skull fracture. It is because of the dynamics of that system in response to a crash. In other words the instructors in a students 3pt car wearing hybrid S think they are more protected and they aren't.

Increasing racecar retention necessitated the need for head neck restraint (HANS). In the dark ages of racecars they thought lots of seatbelt stretch allowed you to ride down an impact!

It is never dangerous to be well retained into a well supported seat.

Racers with helmets on see the track just fine strapped tight in full containment seats at 100+MPH with other cars so close they rub paint. Yet for some reason street drivers say they can't see with a better contained seat? Note that very very few of the seats you and I can or are willing to buy are truely full containment.
 
62
53
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Boone NC
I call BS on that. Safety is a system. There must be more to the conversation there since we are mixing systems and there must be some misunderstanding on what was being said. 3pt safety systems work up to about 50G impacts. Racing safety systems work at recorded 150G levels. A key tenant in racing car safety systems is seat retention. You can't be too tight in your seat if you can breath.

Without more context it is impossible to say what was going on in that podcast but most likely there is a misunderstanding. There are a few things to note:
3 pt systems don't have a problem with basilar skull fracture. It is because of the dynamics of that system in response to a crash. In other words the instructors in a students 3pt car wearing hybrid S think they are more protected and they aren't.

Increasing racecar retention necessitated the need for head neck restraint (HANS). In the dark ages of racecars they thought lots of seatbelt stretch allowed you to ride down an impact!

It is never dangerous to be well retained into a well supported seat.

Racers with helmets on see the track just fine strapped tight in full containment seats at 100+MPH with other cars so close they rub paint. Yet for some reason street drivers say they can't see with a better contained seat? Note that very very few of the seats you and I can or are willing to buy are truely full containment.
I get all those points and they seem to make sense. This guy was saying that a head and neck restraint was needed because of the weight of the helmet- larger forces are involved due to that weight. Also the three point belt does give way at different G forces due to differing threads within the belt. The airbag is designed to work with this give in mind so it goes off at the right force.

Who knows; I'm no expert- this guy designed the Hybrid S so he has an interest in having folks buy one. He convinced me at least. :) I have no intention of ever testing these theories myself but then who does?!?
 

TMSBOSS

Spending my pension on car parts and track fees.
6,980
4,302
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
Illinois
Agreed. And here starts the slippery slope.. again. :)
Nick. Yes, we can go too Far and make our street cars "Too Safe" for street use.

I run both of my cars on the track and on the street. I have a 4 point roll bar and six point harnesses. I Do Not remove any of the factory safety equipment. The three point and the airbags are still in the car and functional. I still have the stock seats although they are a limiting factor now and will be replaced with a street compatible seat.
When I drive on the street the stock safety system is used, 3 point belts and airbag. On the track, I use the six point harnesses with a hans. The airbags are still active. Are the airbags ineffective with the six point and hans, very likely so. Why? They will function but the body will be secured with the harness and stopped before the airbags would do their job. At least that's my theory.
When I drive on the street, the harnesses are pulled back and stowed behind the seats. Switch over takes 5 minutes or less.
The "Best of Both Worlds"??? No. All of the best for the street and most of the best for the track, I think so. I/We could strip and cage our cars but then they would be track only cars.
 
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119
79
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
Atlanta, GA
Nick. Yes, we can go too Far and make our street cars "Too Safe" for street use.

I run both of my cars on the track and on the street. I have a 4 point roll bar and six point harnesses. I Do Not remove any of the factory safety equipment. The three point and the airbags are still in the car and functional. I still have the stock seats although they are a limiting factor now and will be replaced with a street compatible seat.
When I drive on the street the stock safety system is used, 3 point belts and airbag. On the track, I use the six point harnesses with a hans. The airbags are still active. Are the airbags ineffective with the six point and hans, very likely so. Why? They will function but the body will be secured with the harness and stopped before the airbags would do their job. At least that's my theory.
When I drive on the street, the harnesses and pulled back and stowed behind the seats. Switch over takes 5 minutes or less.
The "Best of Both Worlds"??? No. All of the best for the street and most of the best for the track, I think so. I/We could strip and cage our cars but then they would be track only cars.
Thanks TMOBOSS this is the direction I have in mind for my car. Currently I’m using the Schroth Quick Fit Pro with a Hans. I disconnect the harness for street driving and use the factory 3 pt belt. I remember seeing your 350R setup at Barber. Very nice!! Thanks again for the feedback.
Cheers
 

TymeSlayer

Tramps like us, Baby we were born to run...
3,777
2,701
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
3-5 Years
Brighton, Colorado
Nick. Yes, we can go too Far and make our street cars "Too Safe" for street use.

I run both of my cars on the track and on the street. I have a 4 point roll bar and six point harnesses. I Do Not remove any of the factory safety equipment. The three point and the airbags are still in the car and functional. I still have the stock seats although they are a limiting factor now and will be replaced with a street compatible seat.
When I drive on the street the stock safety system is used, 3 point belts and airbag. On the track, I use the six point harnesses with a hans. The airbags are still active. Are the airbags ineffective with the six point and hans, very likely so. Why? They will function but the body will be secured with the harness and stopped before the airbags would do their job. At least that's my theory.
When I drive on the street, the harnesses are pulled back and stowed behind the seats. Switch over takes 5 minutes or less.
The "Best of Both Worlds"??? No. All of the best for the street and most of the best for the track, I think so. I/We could strip and cage our cars but then they would be track only cars.
Ditto. I'm not driving F1 or NASCAR or Door-to-Door but I have the same safety gear as TMS. I remember I started out in HPDE with just a helmet and the factory three point systems but as I started running faster and a few off road excursions, it was quite obvious that the OEM stuff wasn't enough for the track. I do the same as Tracy when I'm on the street. It works for me.
 
533
362
sfo
I get all those points and they seem to make sense. This guy was saying that a head and neck restraint was needed because of the weight of the helmet- larger forces are involved due to that weight. Also the three point belt does give way at different G forces due to differing threads within the belt. The airbag is designed to work with this give in mind so it goes off at the right force.

Who knows; I'm no expert- this guy designed the Hybrid S so he has an interest in having folks buy one. He convinced me at least. :) I have no intention of ever testing these theories myself but then who does?!?

yes all that is consistent with what I understand.
 

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