Watts Link vs. Panhard Bar Roll Center Relocation Kit

[VoodooBoss]

After driving the two Eibach modified academy Mustang GT's at Chuckwalla Valley Raceway I'm now thinking about adding more grip out back. Two possible solutions are a Watts link or Kenny Brown's Roll-Center relocation kit. I know several members have experience with a WL but have any used the RC kit? The WL setup does a better job of keeping the axle centered but the RC relocation kit looks to do a pretty good job of it as well. There will still be some left/right movement but they will at least be equal and in the same plane compared to stock. I'd prefer not to add any additional NHV to the car. While the Cortex unit looks pretty slick I'm a bit concerned about mounting the pivot to the diff cover and it looks relatively complicated. The Fays unit looks a bit simplier but is heavier. The RC kit is simple and light and is more cost effective but does it come close to the improvement as a WL? I met Kenny Brown last Summer and talked to him about the RC kit. He said getting the RC correct (both front and rear) are the key to making the S197 platform handle properly and getting more power down.

Please post up and comments and experience you have with any of these setups.

http://store.kennybrown.com/product/rear-suspension/roll-center-relocation-kit-heavy-duty-double-adjustable-panhard-bar

http://www.cortexracing.com/shop/xtreme-grip-watts-link-system-track-2005/

http://fays2.net/fays2_watts_link_22_.html

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

There is a big debate about this on S197Forum, some of the guys are claiming the Fays2 axle clamps can slip, also some people saying the heims on the Fays2 wear out and get clunky/sloppy.
The Fays also does not have any provision for draining/filling the diff that I can see, so either you tap it for a cooler setup/drain plug or you have to take it off every 12 hours of track time to change the fluid.

The cortex kit does not have these issues.

That being said, the RC kit is the least expensive option, and also the easiest to install, and apparently eliminates the rear swaybar, which might be a slight net weight reduction vs. the new parts. I think I would try this first and if you're not pleased with the improvement, sell the parts and try the Cortex setup.

EDIT: JUST NOTICED while watching the KB install video that the RC kit may not work if you are using the FRPP LCA relocation brackets; it doesn't look like the two are compatible on the driver's side bracket where the PHB installs. So you would either have to get the KB LCA Relo brackets as well, or skip this option and get the Cortex system.

 

[JScheier]

You might also want to look at the Whiteline Watts-Link: Vorshlag. Vorshlag has a write up on the issue of Panhard vs. Watts on the provided link.

I have not run a Watts on this car (2012 Boss 302), but I have run them on my 1986 GT (Griggs + IPS) and my 1995 Cobra (Griggs). I originally had a panhard setup on the 86GT, and feel that the watts had a much better overall feeling in the rear of the car. Eventually I will have a watts on the 302... just working out other issues first.

 

[Sesshomurai]

I'm also interested in feedback on these setups. I just have a single adj. panhard. Not sure what a 'double' adjustable does though.

 

[VoodooBoss]

The Whiteline is certainly another option to the Cortex. I have my diff cover drilled with plugs so I'm set there. My friend with a 302 is installing the RC kit so we'll see how that goes. I didn't realize you remove your sway bar with the kit. I'm using the FR LCA relocation brackets so I'll have to check into that.

Darren the main reason for an adjustable panhard bar is to center the axle when lowering your car and doesn't add much to the performance. If your bar has poly bushings or spherical bearings that will remove deflection in the system and tighten up the handling some and reduce wheel hop. I have the FR LCA's and adjustable panhard bar with poly bushings. Gary is using the same units with the spherical bearings.

 

[iDrive]

I've run a Fays2 Watts Link on both a 99' ESP Camaro and my 12' Boss for the last 5 years. Never had a lose clamp and never had to replace any of the heim joints. I run 315 A6's on concrete so it takes the loads without issue. To change the diff fluid, you can drill and tap the oil drain boss or remove the center propeller bolt/nut for the diff cover removal. The Fays2 has superior adjust ability (fine tuning) compared to the Cortex, Whiteline, KB or anything else currently on the market. This alone is why I installed the Fays2.

True the Fays2 is a bit heavier, but it's built that way for a purpose. I also would not recommend anything with heim joints for a daily driver if your afraid of a little noise here and there. Whiteline is a nice piece, but the sway bar relocation and the limited roll-center adjust ability is not for me. I really like the Cortex, but again, limited adjustable roll-center and now it's not legal in SCCA ESP AutoX. A Fays2/Cortex hybrid would be a sweet set-up.

If the KB set-up requires removal of the sway-bar, that would not be an option. Limits tuning.

None of these parts are designed to set'em and forget'em. Test and tune!

my 2 cents,

Dave

 

[Eric]

I just installed the KB roll center relocation kit...the FRP LCA brackets can't be used.
r/
Eric

 

[VoodooBoss]

I just installed the KB roll center relocation kit...the FRP LCA brackets can't be used.
r/
Eric

Did you use the KB relocation brackets and if so which LCA's are you using? How did the install go and what do you think of it so far?

 

[jnathan68]

Just checked out the KB kit and in the video that goes along with it, it is stated that you can run a rear sway bar but the recommendation is either a very small or no rear sway bar.

 

[VoodooBoss]

Just checked out the KB kit and in the video that goes along with it, it is stated that you can run a rear sway bar but the recommendation is either a very small or no rear sway bar.

My friend is going to run without a sway bar and then if he needs to he'll add one later.

 

[jnathan68]

My friend is going to run without a sway bar and then if he needs to he'll add one later.

Good approach. The kit looks pretty cool. I am definetly intrigued.

 

[bbrgt]

I tried the KB panhard kit on the S and had issues with the brackets flexing, we would centre the diff do a 15 min session and the diff would move 3/4 of an inch.
We are now running the cortex watts with no rear bar and 400 lb rear springs and the car works great . I have 4 races plus some test days on the cortex setup and have had no issues

Tim

 

[dabossinnne]

KB panhard bar RC repo kit is my next mod, along with camber/caster plates. Lowering the rear roll center makes tons of sense in terms of increasing rear roll stiffness, which obviates the need for a rear anti-roll bar, and eliminating brake dive. The kit appears to have some panhard bay vertical location adjustability within the mounting brackets, which should translate into some rear roll stiffness adjustability. Think it's worth the modest investment to try it out, anyway.

 

[Eric]

Rick,

I'm in the middle of installing the KB AGS-4 Street/Sport suspension:
- KB Roll Center Relocation (they have a new bracket on the drivers side to eliminate the flex).
- KB Street/Sport LCA
- KB LCA brackets
- KB 3d link
- KB K-member
- KB super grip front lower control arms
- KB Extreme Matrix subframe connectors
- KB spec Eibach coil over

The stock LS sway bar interfered with the drivers side RC bracket, so its off the car now. KB recommends either a small dia. rear bar or no bar at all.

So far the install is going well...I'll give you some feedback once I get it back on the road.

r/
Eric

 

[iDrive]

KB panhard bar RC repo kit is my next mod, along with camber/caster plates. Lowering the rear roll center makes tons of sense in terms of increasing rear roll stiffness, which obviates the need for a rear anti-roll bar, and eliminating brake dive. The kit appears to have some panhard bay vertical location adjustability within the mounting brackets, which should translate into some rear roll stiffness adjustability. Think it's worth the modest investment to try it out, anyway.

How does lowering the roll center increase rear roll stiffness and eliminate brake dive?

Did you mean to say raising the roll center increases rear roll stiffness. Not sure how you figured a connection to eliminating brake dive. Springs and dampening control brake dive.

Dave

 

[Dig-It]

My friend is going to run without a sway bar and then if he needs to he'll add one later.

The rear sway bar is not needed. I'm running without it right and happy with the results.

I just finished the KB AGS 4.0 in my LS (with the exceptions of the front strut tower brace, lower front chassis brace and the rear LCAs). The car is tighter, turns flatter, and puts power down quicker (less absorption by the car itself - also added Prothane motor mounts). The downside is increase in NVH, but I'm fine with it.

 

[cloud9]

You might also want to look at the Whiteline Watts-Link: Vorshlag. Vorshlag has a write up on the issue of Panhard vs. Watts on the provided link.

I have not run a Watts on this car (2012 Boss 302), but I have run them on my 1986 GT (Griggs + IPS) and my 1995 Cobra (Griggs). I originally had a panhard setup on the 86GT, and feel that the watts had a much better overall feeling in the rear of the car. Eventually I will have a watts on the 302... just working out other issues first.

Does anyone know for sure if the Whiteline unit works fine with the FRPP LCA relo brackets? This looks like a good option for a street/track car.

 

[max5ive0]

Reading through this thread has made me realize my car is way out of my league, as is this forum.

 

[JScheier]

Does anyone know for sure if the Whiteline unit works fine with the FRPP LCA relo brackets? This looks like a good option for a street/track car.

Looking at the photos, the LCA relocation arms should not be an issue. Take a look at the red Vorshlag car. All of the Watts Link arms are far behind the lower control arms. I know Terry had talked about running relocation brackets, but they were not allowed in ESP (and now, either is the WL Watts).

I gave him a heads-up you'd be calling.

 

[jim woodruff]

Does anyone know for sure if the Whiteline unit works fine with the FRPP LCA relo brackets? This looks like a good option for a street/track car.

I run the Cortex Watts link with the Whiteline lca relocation brackets with no problems. I feel both Cortex and Whiteline Watts links have the same quality.