NJ State police are not allowing any 4 point belts starting this year (not even ASM).
I can get the anti-sub strap (for my 4 point, as it has the extra slot),
and it appears to be legal to "sit on" this belt and attach it to the lap belt mounts.

If doing it this method, should belts be wrapped around seat in lap belt path, run between
upper/lower seat back, or it does not matter?

I do have 4 point roll bar now and have just started looking at dedicated seats/mounts, but
that is not going to happen overnight.

Depends how legal do you want to go. I love deep dives into this stuff, yes i'm strange and i know it.
Lets find the law you referenced and see specifically what it says.

The pertinent point is this line "shall wear a properly adjusted and fastened safety seat belt system as defined by Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard Number 209"
I hate rules of thumb statements, no mention of 4 point harnesses per se, or any other details. Follow the trail and head on over to the standard referenced to find this seat belt definition.


Starting with definitions:

Appears we are looking for a Type 2 seat belt assembly as it contains in simple terms lap and shoulder restraint.

Section 4 - S4.1(c) States
Upper torso restraint. A Type 2 seat belt assembly shall provide upper torso restraint without shifting the pelvic restraint into the abdominal region. An upper torso restraint shall be designed to minimize vertical forces on the shoulders and spine. Hardware for upper torso restraint shall be so designed and located in the seat belt assembly that the possibility of injury to the occupant is minimized.
A Type 2a shoulder belt shall comply with applicable requirements for a Type 2 seat belt assembly in S4.1 to S4.4, inclusive.

When using a 4 point harness as a seat belt it appears that the issue lies with the statement "A Type 2 seat belt assembly shall provide upper torso restraint without shifting the pelvic restraint into the abdominal region."

So what become your options when used with a standard seat and complying with the letter of the law so as not to fill your states coffers with your hard earned cash.

OX1 said:

it appears to be legal to "sit on" this belt and attach it to the lap belt mounts.

If doing it this method, should belts be wrapped around seat in lap belt path, run between
upper/lower seat back, or it does not matter?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Personally on this point i think the option "wrapped around seat in lap belt path" will be the best option as the straps are headed downward over the sides of the seat and more likely holding the buckle down which is what you are trying to do to comply with the standard.
Running it under your butt and through the seat split won't sufficiently tension the buckle as there is too much padding the straps are running over.

Another spot you could be caught on (there may be more if they really want to get you) is Section 4 -S4.1(h)
Webbing. The ends of webbing in a seat belt assembly shall be protected or treated to prevent raveling. The end of webbing in a seat belt assembly having a metal-to-metal buckle that is used by the occupant to adjust the size of the assembly shall not pull out of the adjustment hardware at maximum size adjustment. Provision shall be made for essentially unimpeded movement of webbing routed between a seat back and seat cushion and attached to a retractor located behind the seat.

This line caught my eye "The end of webbing in a seat belt assembly having a metal-to-metal buckle that is used by the occupant to adjust the size of the assembly shall not pull out of the adjustment hardware at maximum size adjustment."
While typing this i changed my mind then changed it back. The standard shoulder adjusters are fine as they don't pull through, but depending on interpretation the ends of the shoulder straps that get wrapped around a roll cage or attached to a snap latch can be pulled all the way out of said attachments. My mind looks for loop holes but this one works against you, they may consider this an adjustment hardware. If you want to be pedantic you could add a through button like a typical shoulder strap limiter to satisfy this requirement after you work out your method of attachment and install it.

Honestly, don't you have your standard seat belts still in the car. Just use those on the road until you change to race seats. I run both in my car.

Grab yourself a Watson Harness Lap Belt Mount to help with the situation
I use this for the lap belt section of the harness and it has holes for your future properly mounted crotch belt setup.
Given i live in the most over the top State in Australia for Police scrutiny of motor vehicles, my dual setup keeps me out of trouble.



Probably not the response you were expecting but i hope it helps anyway.

Sorry, possibly didn't fully explain myself.
The NJ State Police interpret safety rules for
on track usage, in this state.

I do still have and will use stock 3 points on the street.
It is on track, even non racing (HPDE) they have banned any
4 points.

Kinda strange situation. Private property and all that kinda thing.
Well my other suggestion still stands. Over the sides of the seat at the hinge point and down to the lap mount locations. Going straight under has a tendency to crush the family jewels.

GAR944 said:

This line caught my eye "The end of webbing in a seat belt assembly having a metal-to-metal buckle that is used by the occupant to adjust the size of the assembly shall not pull out of the adjustment hardware at maximum size adjustment."
While typing this i changed my mind then changed it back. The standard shoulder adjusters are fine as they don't pull through, but depending on interpretation the ends of the shoulder straps that get wrapped around a roll cage or attached to a snap latch can be pulled all the way out of said attachments.

Click to expand...

I'm a rules weenie, and my interpretation is that "the occupant" does not use the 3-bar clip to "adjust the size of the assembly" -- the 3-bar clip is what the installer uses to fit the assembly to the vehicle. An occupant (someone sitting in a seat) only uses the regular adjusters to adjust the size of the belts.

To the OP, except for the Schroth ASM design, I believe 4-point belts are pure evil and should be considered deadly. Without a proper anti-sub strap, there is a very good chance the lap belt will change from across the pelvis (bone) to across the abdomen (soft, squishy internal organs) in a frontal impact. Either due to submarining of the body, or the fact that when the shoulder straps were tightened the lap belt was pulled above the pelvis to start with. Consider that a 20g impact experienced by a 200 lb. person creates 4,000 lbs. of force that the belts are trying to retain. If most of that force is at the pelvis (and to a lesser extent the ribs and shoulders) you can generally handle that; if the force is delivered to your liver, pancreas, etc., the result is potential organ rupture and internal bleeding. Which can really ruin your day.

GAR944 said:

Kinda strange situation. Private property and all that kinda thing.
Well my other suggestion still stands. Over the sides of the seat at the hinge point and down to the lap mount locations. Going straight under has a tendency to crush the family jewels.

Click to expand...

I'm sure it's an insurance thing. Track and HPDE group not following NJSP rules recommendation,
is probably a non-starter. And not to get too political, but it probably matters which state we are talking about too.
(so far, I don't know of any other state/track that banned the Schroth ASM 4 point for non racing/time trial days).
Luckily, that 4 point it set up for 6 point from the get-go.

Seems many do it under the seatback. I wasn't sure if I went the lap belt path, if that would be too far forward where it wraps
under butt and up. At least stock Recaros are made well for lap path. It's pretty easy to switch out for either way, even at the track, if group prefers one way over the other.

"Rules" don't really seem to specify.

"Seat belts All drivers in SCCA sanctioned speed events shall utilize either a 5, 6, or 7 point restraint harness meeting the following specifications.7 point restraint harness is recommended. Arm restraints are required on all open cars including open Targa tops, sunroofs and T-tops. Arm restraints shall not be worn in a manner which limits the ability of the driver to provide visible signals to other competitors while on track. The shoulder harness shall be the over the shoulder type. There shall be a single release common to the seat belt and shoulder harness. When mounting belts and harnesses it is recommended that they be kept as short as reasonably possible to minimize stretch when loaded in an accident. The shoulder harness shall be mounted behind the driver and supported above a line drawn downward from the shoulder point at an angle of 20 degrees with the horizontal. The seat itself, or anything added only to the seat shall not be considered a suitable guide. Guides must be a part of the roll cage or a part of the car structure. Only separate shoulder straps are permitted. (“Y” type shoulder straps are not allowed.) “H” type configuration is allowed. The single anti-submarine strap of the 5 point system shall be attached to the floor structure and have a metal to metal connection with the single release common to the seat belt and shoulder harness. The double leg straps of the 6 point or 7 point system may be attached to the floor as above for the 5 point system or be attached to the seat belt so that the driver sits on them, passing them up between his legs and attaching either to the single release common to the seat belt and shoulder harness or attaching to the shoulder harness straps. Each seat (lap) and shoulder belt of the harness (5, 6, or 7 points) shall have an individual mounting point (i.e. 2 for seat belt and 2 for shoulder belt minimum). 6 or 7 point system anti-submarine straps may share a mounting point with one or both seat (lap) belt(s). The minimum acceptable bolts used in the mounting of all belts and harnesses is SAE Grade 5/Metric 8.8. Mounting hardware, including eye bolts, as provided by the belt manufacturer, may also be used for mounting belts and harnesses. Where possible, seat belt, shoulder harness, and anti-submarine strap(s) should be mounted to the roll structure or frame of the car. Where this is not possible, large diameter mounting washers or equivalent should be used to spread the load. All driver restraint systems shall meet one of the following: SFI specification 16.1, 16.5, or FIA specification 8853/98, 8853-2016 or 8854/98. Restraint systems meeting SFI 16.1 or 16.5 shall bear a dated SFI Spec label. The certification indicated by this label shall expire on December 31st of the 5th year after the date of manufacture as indicated by the label. If for example the manufacture date is 2014 the fifth year after the date of manufacture is 2019. Restraint systems homologated to FIA specification 8853/98 and 8854/98 will have a label containing the type of harness designation (‘C-###.T/98 or D-###.T/98) and date of expiration which is the last day of the year marked. All straps in this FIA restraint system will have these labels."