Cambered Rear Vs. Weight Reduction Vs. Power Mods - Help Me Decide!

[GAR944]

One thing not mentioned here is safety. Please continue to invest in quality safety gear (fire system, driver clothing, belts, etc) throughout your build. You can always build another car or delay mod purchases but you can't get your life back.

Couldn't agree more with this statement, over engineer when it comes to this. I tore the front factory seat mounts out of the floor because the impact was backwards. Thankfully the high sided race seat held and I didn't end up in the back seat.

 

[blacksheep-1]

I'm glad Ricky mentioned A/C , project Superbeater also has A/C, in fact I repaired it so I would have it working down here in Fla. Also comments on weight saving in body panels is spot on, When you start looking at carbon fiber, there is race C/F and street C/F. the race stuff is flimsy and not very good finish, it has to be that way because the original body panels are so ligh to begin with, that it's difficult to make anything lighter. The street stuff is finished off, but it is also about twice as much weigth as the original panels. I was searching for comments AJ made about the cambered rear, I don't really know how to explain it, but the cambered rear, itself doesn't make the car faster, what it does do is allow further changes to the cars setup and that is what makes the car faster, being able to adjust camber and other perameters, in racing there is no magic part, there are simply parts that allow you to more finely tune the car. This diff is a great product, and very robust, AJ's Mustang has hit every curb in the universe, and had the chassis drop by several feet in some places, and the diff never complained a bit.
The limiting factor will always be tires, 200 TDW is only so good, not matter what you do. The Goodyear supercar 3s that we ran in WRL were great, they had the same lap times at the end of the race as the beginning, that being said, the bad part is, they had the same lap times at the end as in the beginning. so whatver chassis tweaks you could do , was limited by the tires. Going full slick will do 4 things, 1. it will be more expensive, 2. you will need more of them, 3. a sticker set of tires will mask a ton of bad setup decisions.. at least for a few laps, 4. they will drop off over time. try to find a class with the 200TDW IMO and stay there for awhile.

 

[Mike_FL]

I’ve just removed my AC. I made a point of not using it for the last 6 months to see if I could cope.
I only use the car once or twice a month and it has helped a lot with airflow and cooling.
I wouldn’t have removed it if I use the car to commute

 

[TMSBOSS]

I’ve just removed my AC. I made a point of not using it for the last 6 months to see if I could cope.
I only use the car once or twice a month and it has helped a lot with airflow and cooling.
I wouldn’t have removed it if I use the car to commute

I still drive my Boss on the street. A/C is a must have, for now.

 

[SMGDHG]

Weighing in here and trying to be objective as I'm naturally going to be a bit biased. First, the feedback above is top notch. This community is as you probably know, a phenomenal place to get a variety of input. Having seen hundreds of these builds, and having sold hundreds of cambered axles, I have a two different suggestions for you.

Is it a street car that races or a race car that is driven on the street?

If it's a street car that races; you can selectively trim weight (rear seat deletes, potentially removing the sound system but leaving door panels) and for gods sake leave the A/C (my streetable track car becomes unbearable in the summer and I'm now trying to add driver cooling back into the car.) Add grippier tires as others have mentioned, this will be your single largest time gain for the money spent. The cambered rear and a coyote swap are both likely similarly expensive endeavors. Our data points indicate that most customers will see roughly 1.5-2 seconds in improvement around a ~1:30 per lap track. I do not have similar data points for a 3V to coyote swap change but am doing that on a personal car and am eager to see the time difference. I suspect it will be similar or slightly more than the cambered rear. With that said, the coyote is going to be much more noticeable on the street so it would benefit you to do this first and will likely give you the greater satisfaction. You can then follow that up with a cambered rear to get as much time as possible out of the car when your budget allows.

If its a race car that streets the formula is fairly simple: gut the car. With that said, I'd really encourage you to evaluate the dollars spent in weight savings. The factory aluminum hood and fenders are quite light and going to a carbon fiber panel is probably not worth the dollars spent. Lexan front and rear windows can help but become miserable to drive on the street as they get fine scratches (forget about using your windshield wipers.) By fully gutting the doors, A/C system including the compressor & under dash box, and remaining interior you can very realistically shave 160 pounds out of the car and spend next to nothing. There is 90lbs that can easily and cheaply be removed from the doors alone. The whole A/C system is another ~25 lbs. Carpet, trim, and headliner is ~15. The factory stereo and all speakers are another 10lbs. From there you will still want to add the grippier tires as the next step. The order for the cambered rear and coyote is again largely a matter of personal preference. If the 3V works and you dont feel it's holding you back, put the cambered rear in and run the 3V until it blows up. This gives you plenty of time to prep your coyote swap and divide the budget up over time.

One thing not mentioned here is safety. Please continue to invest in quality safety gear (fire system, driver clothing, belts, etc) throughout your build. You can always build another car or delay mod purchases but you can't get your life back.

Feel free to give us a ring as you keep working through your project. We're happy to help however we can.

Hope this helps.

Truly fantastic to hear from you, and many great points! It helps a lot.

All things considered, the car more so falls under the “race car that sees street time” category rather than the former. It can be driven on the street, and for years I did, but I was happy to put street driving this car behind me when I got the trailer.

I am pretty much not interested in the coyote swap, as the 3v has been an extremely loyal companion in the years of driving and 70+ track days it’s been through. Oil analysis is hilarious good every single oil change. Since I’m anal and would want total reliability, I know a coyote swap would easily end up being $10-$15k+ “done right”. And at that point it’s just another coyote s-197, which I’m not super interested in being. Perpetual underdog syndrome at play there

You have all given me tonssssss to think about. Seriously such a huge help as always. This community has been one of the many things which has kept me so interested in the S-197.

I need to think about the order in which I make these changes, but to summarize in no particular order, I think these are the changes I need to make which will put me and this car at a national level of competition (I need to drop about 4s of lap time):

• gutting
• Installing lightweight components (windows, battery, trunk, radiator support)
• Better Aero (rear for sure, maybe front too)
• Cambered rear + 4:10 gears
• Custom Road Race Cams (cams may not be necessary depending on the effectiveness of the other mods)
• Slicks (this will be the very last step

 

[SMGDHG]

I'm glad Ricky mentioned A/C , project Superbeater also has A/C, in fact I repaired it so I would have it working down here in Fla. Also comments on weight saving in body panels is spot on, When you start looking at carbon fiber, there is race C/F and street C/F. the race stuff is flimsy and not very good finish, it has to be that way because the original body panels are so ligh to begin with, that it's difficult to make anything lighter. The street stuff is finished off, but it is also about twice as much weigth as the original panels. I was searching for comments AJ made about the cambered rear, I don't really know how to explain it, but the cambered rear, itself doesn't make the car faster, what it does do is allow further changes to the cars setup and that is what makes the car faster, being able to adjust camber and other perameters, in racing there is no magic part, there are simply parts that allow you to more finely tune the car. This diff is a great product, and very robust, AJ's Mustang has hit every curb in the universe, and had the chassis drop by several feet in some places, and the diff never complained a bit.
The limiting factor will always be tires, 200 TDW is only so good, not matter what you do. The Goodyear supercar 3s that we ran in WRL were great, they had the same lap times at the end of the race as the beginning, that being said, the bad part is, they had the same lap times at the end as in the beginning. so whatver chassis tweaks you could do , was limited by the tires. Going full slick will do 4 things, 1. it will be more expensive, 2. you will need more of them, 3. a sticker set of tires will mask a ton of bad setup decisions.. at least for a few laps, 4. they will drop off over time. try to find a class with the 200TDW IMO and stay there for awhile.

That has been what I’ve been doing for the most part. In SoCal/NorCal we have a mustang/camaro/corvette/challenger specific series which I have been running in the 200tw class in. Sadly it hasn’t really scratched my itch for competitiveness so I’m looking to build the car for another series.


This is good info on the cambered rear. So does Mr. AJ run the cambered rear now that he’s had time to R&D it? Or did he give up on it after it didn’t immediately drop his lap times?

 

[blacksheep-1]

That has been what I’ve been doing for the most part. In SoCal/NorCal we have a mustang/camaro/corvette/challenger specific series which I have been running in the 200tw class in. Sadly it hasn’t really scratched my itch for competitiveness so I’m looking to build the car for another series.


This is good info on the cambered rear. So does Mr. AJ run the cambered rear now that he’s had time to R&D it? Or did he give up on it after it didn’t immediately drop his lap times?

Someplace on here is his response to that from about 7 years ago. To paraphrase, " it was another thing that was to be a magic bullet ( along with the watts) for PWC. It wasn't but it opened the door for more changes and adjustments" . Yes, it's still in the car, also @Fabman , I think will have a similar response. It will also let you run a different rear brake.

 

[Fabman]

Weighing in here and trying to be objective as I'm naturally going to be a bit biased. First, the feedback above is top notch. This community is as you probably know, a phenomenal place to get a variety of input. Having seen hundreds of these builds, and having sold hundreds of cambered axles, I have a two different suggestions for you.

Is it a street car that races or a race car that is driven on the street?

If it's a street car that races; you can selectively trim weight (rear seat deletes, potentially removing the sound system but leaving door panels) and for gods sake leave the A/C (my streetable track car becomes unbearable in the summer and I'm now trying to add driver cooling back into the car.) Add grippier tires as others have mentioned, this will be your single largest time gain for the money spent. The cambered rear and a coyote swap are both likely similarly expensive endeavors. Our data points indicate that most customers will see roughly 1.5-2 seconds in improvement around a ~1:30 per lap track. I do not have similar data points for a 3V to coyote swap change but am doing that on a personal car and am eager to see the time difference. I suspect it will be similar or slightly more than the cambered rear. With that said, the coyote is going to be much more noticeable on the street so it would benefit you to do this first and will likely give you the greater satisfaction. You can then follow that up with a cambered rear to get as much time as possible out of the car when your budget allows.

If its a race car that streets the formula is fairly simple: gut the car. With that said, I'd really encourage you to evaluate the dollars spent in weight savings. The factory aluminum hood and fenders are quite light and going to a carbon fiber panel is probably not worth the dollars spent. Lexan front and rear windows can help but become miserable to drive on the street as they get fine scratches (forget about using your windshield wipers.) By fully gutting the doors, A/C system including the compressor & under dash box, and remaining interior you can very realistically shave 160 pounds out of the car and spend next to nothing. There is 90lbs that can easily and cheaply be removed from the doors alone. The whole A/C system is another ~25 lbs. Carpet, trim, and headliner is ~15. The factory stereo and all speakers are another 10lbs. From there you will still want to add the grippier tires as the next step. The order for the cambered rear and coyote is again largely a matter of personal preference. If the 3V works and you dont feel it's holding you back, put the cambered rear in and run the 3V until it blows up. This gives you plenty of time to prep your coyote swap and divide the budget up over time.

One thing not mentioned here is safety. Please continue to invest in quality safety gear (fire system, driver clothing, belts, etc) throughout your build. You can always build another car or delay mod purchases but you can't get your life back.

Feel free to give us a ring as you keep working through your project. We're happy to help however we can.

Hope this helps.

Well said.

 

[RodS197]

@SMGDHG - If you do end up taking out the AC (I took it out of my 2006 and put it back in to sell the car) I have a FRPP AC delete pulley for the 3v I will give you a killer deal on...

 

[twistedneck]

Weighing in here and trying to be objective as I'm naturally going to be a bit biased. First, the feedback above is top notch. This community is as you probably know, a phenomenal place to get a variety of input. Having seen hundreds of these builds, and having sold hundreds of cambered axles, I have a two different suggestions for you.

Is it a street car that races or a race car that is driven on the street?

If it's a street car that races; you can selectively trim weight (rear seat deletes, potentially removing the sound system but leaving door panels) and for gods sake leave the A/C (my streetable track car becomes unbearable in the summer and I'm now trying to add driver cooling back into the car.) Add grippier tires as others have mentioned, this will be your single largest time gain for the money spent. The cambered rear and a coyote swap are both likely similarly expensive endeavors. Our data points indicate that most customers will see roughly 1.5-2 seconds in improvement around a ~1:30 per lap track. I do not have similar data points for a 3V to coyote swap change but am doing that on a personal car and am eager to see the time difference. I suspect it will be similar or slightly more than the cambered rear. With that said, the coyote is going to be much more noticeable on the street so it would benefit you to do this first and will likely give you the greater satisfaction. You can then follow that up with a cambered rear to get as much time as possible out of the car when your budget allows.

If its a race car that streets the formula is fairly simple: gut the car. With that said, I'd really encourage you to evaluate the dollars spent in weight savings. The factory aluminum hood and fenders are quite light and going to a carbon fiber panel is probably not worth the dollars spent. Lexan front and rear windows can help but become miserable to drive on the street as they get fine scratches (forget about using your windshield wipers.) By fully gutting the doors, A/C system including the compressor & under dash box, and remaining interior you can very realistically shave 160 pounds out of the car and spend next to nothing. There is 90lbs that can easily and cheaply be removed from the doors alone. The whole A/C system is another ~25 lbs. Carpet, trim, and headliner is ~15. The factory stereo and all speakers are another 10lbs. From there you will still want to add the grippier tires as the next step. The order for the cambered rear and coyote is again largely a matter of personal preference. If the 3V works and you dont feel it's holding you back, put the cambered rear in and run the 3V until it blows up. This gives you plenty of time to prep your coyote swap and divide the budget up over time.

One thing not mentioned here is safety. Please continue to invest in quality safety gear (fire system, driver clothing, belts, etc) throughout your build. You can always build another car or delay mod purchases but you can't get your life back.

Feel free to give us a ring as you keep working through your project. We're happy to help however we can.

Hope this helps.

What is the main part of the doors that saves? do we need to convert to a hand crank window? is it the big leather door cards? obviously heavy speakers have to go also (just put those in back for weight balance

 

[blacksheep-1]

What is the main part of the doors that saves? do we need to convert to a hand crank window? is it the big leather door cards? obviously heavy speakers have to go also (just put those in back for weight balance

The " real" race cars have the doors completely gutted, glass, impact bars, everything, then they pop rivet the door handle back on what's left along with the mirror adjustment knobs. So when you look at the door from the inside all you have is the rim around the outside for a bit of structure.

 

[Fabman]

The " real" race cars have the doors completely gutted, glass, impact bars, everything, then they pop rivet the door handle back on what's left along with the mirror adjustment knobs. So when you look at the door from the inside all you have is the rim around the outside for a bit of structure.

 

[consultjr]

Weight - I have generally found that 100 lbs. of weight reduction equals approximately .6 of a second reduction in time on a 2 minute lap time course. First you have to evaluate by using same course, same conditions, same equipment and setup. Also to be a driver that turns consistent lap times.
I think Cortex's response (the Mustang experts) is dead on as to approach and information. The only 2 courses that I feel that I was able to closely replicate the same evaluation protocol was Auto Club Speedway and Utah Motorsports Campus (outside loop). Note: This is only my experience on those courses.

 

[DipstickMotorsports]

I'm a big fan of weight reduction. Removing a lot of the weight, especially the carpet & insulation provides a lot more driver feedback on what the chassis is doing. The more feel and feedback a driver has, the more confidence they'll have. People often bolt on "stiffening braces" aka ballast ding dongs and claim they can feel the car "handle better" well, they should try ripping up the carpet for free and really feel something!

 

[Bill Pemberton]

As mentioned earlier, but using a Drag Racing rule of thumb. weight reduction equals time. Using the road course analogy, every 100 lbs lost means you go 1 second faster on a 2 mile track. You are pushing 2 seconds with the weight you analyzed you could lose and remember that loss of weight also means better tire wear, brake wear , etc.

Don't wait, lose the weight!

 

[TMSBOSS]

Don't wait, lose the weight!

Bill

You are starting to sound like my wife. Lol.

 

[SMGDHG]

Thanks all for the feedback. After reading through these, weight reduction has become high on my priority list!

Some good news, my desire to make this car as fast as possible and a great opportunity thanks to Cortex means I will be doing 3 things, two of them at once:

1.) Weight reduction (targeting about 100-150lbs of weight loss)
2.) New front and rear aero (my current aero setup is definitely on the weaker end)

The above items will be happening at the same time thanks to my fantastic friend and fellow racer Tri-bar. I should have very good back to back data.

3.) And the cherry on top will be a Cortex cambered rear end along w/4:10 gears. It's on order, but I am not expecting to get the cambered rear anytime soon, so I should be able to provide good before and after data on if the 1.5s-2s claims I have seen are true. I sure hope they are.

 

[Fabman]

Thanks all for the feedback. After reading through these, weight reduction has become high on my priority list!

Some good news, my desire to make this car as fast as possible and a great opportunity thanks to Cortex means I will be doing 3 things, two of them at once:

1.) Weight reduction (targeting about 100-150lbs of weight loss)
2.) New front and rear aero (my current aero setup is definitely on the weaker end)

The above items will be happening at the same time thanks to my fantastic friend and fellow racer Tri-bar. I should have very good back to back data.

3.) And the cherry on top will be a Cortex cambered rear end along w/4:10 gears. It's on order, but I am not expecting to get the cambered rear anytime soon, so I should be able to provide good before and after data on if the 1.5s-2s claims I have seen are true. I sure hope they are.

I can verify....I did back to backs with the same tires.

 

[Fabman]

Approximately 55 days apart/same exact tires-only the axle was changed.

Standard axle; 1:58.4

Cambered axle (wet track-40* weather) 1:57.0

There's 1.4 seconds right there...on a nice day I would likely have seen 2 seconds or more.
Also the first video was on stickers and the second had those same tires after qualifying, a 35 minute race and 55 days in a cold shop.

 

[Fabman]

The very next time at that track I ran 1:56.9 again on those same tires.