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Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
8,496
8,496
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
Let's look back at the realities of 60s and 70s " Muscle Cars " and remember where the actual meaning of the term came about. The term has morphed into something different , yet initially it meant you needed muscles to drive the machines, with no Power Steering, power brakes , and bone crunching shifters. In later years it came to emphasize the power of the engines , and this is the generalized consensus today. We have romanticized the era and those of us who grew up then still enjoy telling tales of those cars, but frankly though I like looking those cars, as a Trackrat I have virtually no lust for them because they did not stop, they did not turn, and they sure as heck were no where near as quick as " Fisherman Tales " tend to express. A 14 second quarter was rocking , just google old Motor Trend or Car and Driver magazines to see the speed demons of old can be whipped up on by Civic Type Rs.
Contrary to some comments the " Automotive Industry " never died it in fact became the single largest business in the US and the World, with so many off shoots ( smaller industries ) supporting the Manufacturers it enabled growth that was unattendable when Ford, Chrysler and GM did everything in house. We learned , the hard way, from the Japanese and their form of parts and reliance on other companies to perform specialized components that has allowed the Manufacturers to support so many others it can boggle your mind if you stop and think about how many other small businesses are directly influenced by the Manufacturers in the US.
The Insurance Industry killed the Performance Cars in the 60s and 70s for the simple reasons we love our Mustangs and other vehicles today -- we now have machines that will stop, turn and go insanely fast , but they have belts and air bags along with nanny devices that help keep the Insurance Industry happier than back then.
I have owned over 120+ cars, and having been in the automotive industry ( on and off ) for over 31 years, it was so interesting when we took in a " Muscle Car " all the younger salesmen would beg to take it out for a drive. Some would come back saying something was wrong with the car as it would not stop and the brake pedal was super hard , but the most common remark was , " This SS396 ( substitute what you may ) is slow, we need to get it in the shop."
We have vehicles today, many of you own them on this site, that will destroy Trans Am cars or others from only a decade or two back, we have a zillion aftermarket companies to support us for racing and track parts, we may be able to hit close to 200mph, yet under normal highway driving we are getting 20-25 mpg not 8-9 mpg that was normal in those so called " Glory years."
Anyone who tracks their machines has to thank changes in brakes, rack and pinion steering, 6 piston calipers, ABS, wider wheels and tires, airbags, crumple zones, three point inertial reel belts, built in door beams and roof supports, electronic shocks and driving modes, etc. Back in the day we did walk to school in the snow for 3 miles, but the cars back in those days can not hold a candle to what we have today. Nostalgia is simply a time to remember, and though those memories are fun, I am having 3 times more fun making memories now.
I tend not to get too worked up about Government mandates because they seldom work out ( heck the current concern in this thread was finally approved but was modified for an even longer start date than original ) and the Automotive Industry is the single most powerful one in our Country so changes always end up getting made. All we have to do is consider all the MPG mandates of a decade or more back and realize how they have come into play ---- we are all driving Pickups, ha,ha.
Toyota got it right with focusing more on hybrids and Ford has had their hand in it for years, though now it appears the American Public is ready and this should not be any surprise. All the concerns we have had over the years have been changed modified or even delayed because the consumer is the one who will make the final decision. We will soon have a Ram 1500 with a Twin Turbo inline 6, with regenerative power doer the batteries and a range of close to 700 miles. Please tell me that those of us who trailer to tracks aren't interested because I know I am.
I remember reading Popular Mechanics in the 60s and 70s talking about water vapor injection and miracle gasoline innovations that would get us unreal fuel mileage, and better power. Those of us who grew up then soaked up all the futuristic concepts but now they happen constantly.
Logic says battery technology will improve, hybrids will likely become the norm, but with the tortoise speed of Infrastructure Worldwide ( think of Africa and Third World Nations ) the ICE engine will take a very long time to disappear. We get all excited even when many projections state that there will be no ICEs by 2050 ------ stop for 2 seconds and ask yourself , honestly, when did we ever meet projections.
I hope I am around to drive a Hybrid with 1000 HP , and even more suspension dynamics that I can routinely hit 2 gs on a road course....who ever thought we would commonly have cars with over 300-400 HP with only 3 or 4 cylinders. Plenty more I could mention from chatting with some Engineers ( Manufacturer employees ) who are friends for years but there are more and more exciting things to come and innovation often comes about from outside pressure. Think about China and their lead, do we want to sit around and let them dominate the industry Worldwide or do we want to grow in all areas while their main focus is just EV ------ hybrids, EV, and ICE all have growth in the years ahead.
 
442
583
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
Wisconsin
Let's look back at the realities of 60s and 70s " Muscle Cars " and remember where the actual meaning of the term came about. The term has morphed into something different , yet initially it meant you needed muscles to drive the machines, with no Power Steering, power brakes , and bone crunching shifters. In later years it came to emphasize the power of the engines , and this is the generalized consensus today. We have romanticized the era and those of us who grew up then still enjoy telling tales of those cars, but frankly though I like looking those cars, as a Trackrat I have virtually no lust for them because they did not stop, they did not turn, and they sure as heck were no where near as quick as " Fisherman Tales " tend to express. A 14 second quarter was rocking , just google old Motor Trend or Car and Driver magazines to see the speed demons of old can be whipped up on by Civic Type Rs.
Contrary to some comments the " Automotive Industry " never died it in fact became the single largest business in the US and the World, with so many off shoots ( smaller industries ) supporting the Manufacturers it enabled growth that was unattendable when Ford, Chrysler and GM did everything in house. We learned , the hard way, from the Japanese and their form of parts and reliance on other companies to perform specialized components that has allowed the Manufacturers to support so many others it can boggle your mind if you stop and think about how many other small businesses are directly influenced by the Manufacturers in the US.
The Insurance Industry killed the Performance Cars in the 60s and 70s for the simple reasons we love our Mustangs and other vehicles today -- we now have machines that will stop, turn and go insanely fast , but they have belts and air bags along with nanny devices that help keep the Insurance Industry happier than back then.
I have owned over 120+ cars, and having been in the automotive industry ( on and off ) for over 31 years, it was so interesting when we took in a " Muscle Car " all the younger salesmen would beg to take it out for a drive. Some would come back saying something was wrong with the car as it would not stop and the brake pedal was super hard , but the most common remark was , " This SS396 ( substitute what you may ) is slow, we need to get it in the shop."
We have vehicles today, many of you own them on this site, that will destroy Trans Am cars or others from only a decade or two back, we have a zillion aftermarket companies to support us for racing and track parts, we may be able to hit close to 200mph, yet under normal highway driving we are getting 20-25 mpg not 8-9 mpg that was normal in those so called " Glory years."
Anyone who tracks their machines has to thank changes in brakes, rack and pinion steering, 6 piston calipers, ABS, wider wheels and tires, airbags, crumple zones, three point inertial reel belts, built in door beams and roof supports, electronic shocks and driving modes, etc. Back in the day we did walk to school in the snow for 3 miles, but the cars back in those days can not hold a candle to what we have today. Nostalgia is simply a time to remember, and though those memories are fun, I am having 3 times more fun making memories now.
I tend not to get too worked up about Government mandates because they seldom work out ( heck the current concern in this thread was finally approved but was modified for an even longer start date than original ) and the Automotive Industry is the single most powerful one in our Country so changes always end up getting made. All we have to do is consider all the MPG mandates of a decade or more back and realize how they have come into play ---- we are all driving Pickups, ha,ha.
Toyota got it right with focusing more on hybrids and Ford has had their hand in it for years, though now it appears the American Public is ready and this should not be any surprise. All the concerns we have had over the years have been changed modified or even delayed because the consumer is the one who will make the final decision. We will soon have a Ram 1500 with a Twin Turbo inline 6, with regenerative power doer the batteries and a range of close to 700 miles. Please tell me that those of us who trailer to tracks aren't interested because I know I am.
I remember reading Popular Mechanics in the 60s and 70s talking about water vapor injection and miracle gasoline innovations that would get us unreal fuel mileage, and better power. Those of us who grew up then soaked up all the futuristic concepts but now they happen constantly.
Logic says battery technology will improve, hybrids will likely become the norm, but with the tortoise speed of Infrastructure Worldwide ( think of Africa and Third World Nations ) the ICE engine will take a very long time to disappear. We get all excited even when many projections state that there will be no ICEs by 2050 ------ stop for 2 seconds and ask yourself , honestly, when did we ever meet projections.
I hope I am around to drive a Hybrid with 1000 HP , and even more suspension dynamics that I can routinely hit 2 gs on a road course....who ever thought we would commonly have cars with over 300-400 HP with only 3 or 4 cylinders. Plenty more I could mention from chatting with some Engineers ( Manufacturer employees ) who are friends for years but there are more and more exciting things to come and innovation often comes about from outside pressure. Think about China and their lead, do we want to sit around and let them dominate the industry Worldwide or do we want to grow in all areas while their main focus is just EV ------ hybrids, EV, and ICE all have growth in the years ahead.
Nice write up Bill. I get your point as most of us soon to hit 70 years olds would.
 

TMSBOSS

Spending my pension on car parts and track fees.
7,556
5,291
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Illinois
Bill

My first car was a “Muscle Car”. 1968 Corvette convert 390hp 4 speed. Manual brakes, steering, windows and top. She came with the large tube hooker side pipe headers and sounded great. Performance was low 14’s unless the wind was right and you were on the right side of gravity. Yep, performance was close to that of my daughters 2013 V-6 Mustang.
Memories fade and Imagination fills in the gaps. Still wish I had the car.
 
Last edited:
213
180
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
3-5 Years
Columbia, TN
I just wish the government would hurry up and build high speed trains so all the people who don't want to drive and shouldn't drive ride those trains and it opens up the roadways for those of us who like the feel of a steering wheel, a skinny loud pedal, powerful brakes (that don't regenerate energy), and if you're so inclined a clutch and stick shift. Then they wouldn't need to worry if I'm running cats at the end of my headers.
 
330
332
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
So Cal
I just wish the government would hurry up and build high speed trains

You're joking, right?

1. "The Government" isn't building shiznit. Big companies build. Big companies bribe a politician to get a sweet railroad project contract. Those private companies then kick back X% of the deal back into said politician's PAC/SPAC so that politician can get re-elected and throw more contracts to 'Big company.' Wash, rinse, repeat.

Completing a project means it's no longer useful in this regard. There is no interest by any party in ever completing a project once it's started. Timelines grow to forever and budgets increase with each passing year. This is not the way out.

See: CA Brown-doggle
 
213
180
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
3-5 Years
Columbia, TN
@TeeLew I'm not joking and you're not wrong.

The high speed train that was just completed between Orlando and Miami, and the one finally being built between LA and Las Vegas. Yeah baby! Build more! It puts regular people like you and I in business as they spend some of that money. Our government has dreamed of being like Europe for decades.

We can't stop the government and it's self-imposed terrible cycle ... and nor can Russia (think US politicians immediate family members on "energy boards" in Ukraine, among many other things we will never know). It's a bunch of look over here, and while you do we are going to do this over there. Already, there are huge conspiracy theories on the Baltimore Bridge collapse not being an accident. Yes, we should totally make our voices heard as they do respond, especially when blatant data is coming out about the real issues with BEV's and the fact that we call all speak with the power of where we spend our money. But some aspects will never change, but if they do I pray it's for the better! While I lived in Iowa for 6.5yrs I saw a ton of wind turbines setup, but I never saw one hooked up to the grid. No above ground lines and no trench marks. Farmers who's fields they built them in said the same thing. (que the X Files sound track)

I've been hearing my entire life "The end is nye!" ... welp we can still buy sticky 200 tread wear tires, headers, race fuel, and there are a few new biznitch'n tracks that are opening up. If we have bread and entertainment...

I get fighting for good, and most of us do to our best judgement, but where does one draw the line? We can get all twisted up over the motives of our "well meaning morons" in power and literally lose years of our life because of that stress... and they get all the more rich.
 
330
332
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
So Cal
@TeeLew I'm not joking and you're not wrong.

The high speed train that was just completed between Orlando and Miami, and the one finally being built between LA and Las Vegas. Yeah baby! Build more! It puts regular people like you and I in business as they spend some of that money. Our government has dreamed of being like Europe for decades.

You and I are not in the same place. I do not find this to be a good use of money.
 

Fabman

Dances with Racecars
6,553
8,204
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Pleasanton: 1/2 way between Sonoma and Laguna Seca
Bottom line (in my view) we as a species aren't gonna make it.
We are going to go the way of dodo bird.
Like the builders of the pyramids, thousands or millions of years from now people (or whatever populates the earth in the distant future) are gonna be digging up silicon chips and wondering who the hell made them and how did they have such radical technology back in the stone age and where the hell did they go?
We will be but a footnote in some dusty history book and they will get everything wrong because time has all but erased us. (must have been made by aliens)
Personally I think this cycle has gone around many many times throughout the history of the planet and will probably go around many more times until one day a species evolves that doesn't want to lie and cheat and screw each other over every chance they get.
Unfortunately, that species is not us. So with that being said....have a nice day. :)
 
90
114
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
20+ Years
MN
I'm usually the one that throws a lit match into a gasoline tanker and then quietly slips out the back door when no one is watching, so I commend @blacksheep-1 for starting this conversation and taking my place. ✌️

Having said that, I'm no Einstein, but it appears to me this country is a mess, both politically and financially. I have no solution for a fix, but I'm hoping someone smarter than myself does or we're all forked and you won't have to wait long to see it.

BTW, my beef with EV is not that people shouldn't buy them or even like them... I mean, hey whatever floats your boat. What I'm opposed to is the government (Mr. B to be specific (even though its really not him)) mandating that all new vehicles sold after 2030 be EV. That doesn't sit well with me and it shouldn't with any of you. Government overreach in the name of protecting or saving something is never for the good of any of us. Think back to the creation of the Patriot Act after 9/11 (another inside job btw) and why it was created. Certainly not to protect American's although that's what they would like you to think.

Free market enterprise - Capitalism shouldn't have the blood stained hands of government anywhere near it.

And with that, I disappear. 😄
 
213
180
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
3-5 Years
Columbia, TN
@TeeLew It's definitely not a good use of government money. But who can stop them. So all I'm saying is why get mad. The ship is going down, can't stop it.

Yeah, EV's are all fine, if they aren't government mandated.
 
330
332
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
So Cal
@TeeLew It's definitely not a good use of government money. But who can stop them. So all I'm saying is why get mad. The ship is going down, can't stop it.

Yeah, EV's are all fine, if they aren't government mandated.

Thankfully, I'm not one of those mad types. I'm more just resigned to whatever it might be, but I'm not blind to it.
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
8,496
8,496
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
As a kid my grandfather used to take me along when he sat around with his cronies and had coffee some mornings. I was so pleased he wanted me to go along, but I did get a bit frightened because all they discuss was how the sky was falling. As a teenager I hung around with my best friend and we would occasionally hand out with his dad and his friends. They also thought the current generation and the state of the World/Government was coming to an end. We (my friend and I ) actually thought it was funny because we commented on the facts that we heard the same thing from our Grandparents.
The situation we are getting upset about is already slated for 2032 ( yeh, only two years longer than originally noted ) and not 2030 but it is just a projection and I am quite confident Americans will vote with their wallets and we will see delays in Infrastructure that push things out just like the clever invention of carbon credits made the fuel mileage demands of today difficult --- except with innovative improvements in fuel management, hybrids and EV we are pretty much there .

Mandates are sometimes needed ( EPA and air quality standards began under Nixon ), and as Trackrats, mandated belts, crumple zones, airbags, door beams, ABS, stability management, etc. are not only appreciated now, they are an integral part of why we can take a street car on a road course and go 150 mph plus.
At 130mph, in a 68 Chrysler 300 with a 440 V8 the car was so unstable I slowed down as I knew one little gust of wind or something and I would be in a ditch -- what stability I had came from those tiny 14 inch tires that most cars had.

I now have a car in the garage that came from the factory able to do 206 mph, and other that will run about 11 miles short of 200, yet we can not kid ourselves that without the mandates that occurred these would never have come to fruition. This is not to say I completely like mandated changes but over the years one has to stop and realize some have been for our safety and also because of the improvements. We need to stop for a second and realize 50% of something being EV ( history doesn't show we are likely to get to that level ) which also includes Hybrids, is nothing for the majority or us to even get upset about because it means 50% won't be. So , 8 years from now , if things actually meet a projected goal , we will have still see 50% of vehicles your plain ole ICE.

Humans do not like change but it is essential and as we go into what some believe is a Third Industrial Revolution ( with AI and various technological changes that seem like Sci-Fi ) I envy you who will be around to see this happen, but like when the death of the American Motorcycle ( Harley Davidson ) was foretold and new group saved it from extinction to become a new freedom style we all love in this Country. That same type of situation will likely keep ICE or Hybrid machines going well into the future , but the US needs to stay on the cutting edge to lead Worldwide technological trends.

Funny , do any of us take time to realize the World follows the US and our economics as the " Dollar " is the only true universal currency. When we lose that we will be on the downside as that will mean someone else has surpassed us. Keeping current, leading , and in a sense winning the " World Games " is in our genes and we can not sit on the sidelines now or in the future.

Nuff, said , the sky is not falling , we are just another Generation experiencing change , but as before we forget we determine outcomes very simply with our spending habits.
 
Last edited:
66
98
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
West
As I see it the largest part of the problem is the drift away from personal responsibility and the willingness to give up freedom for comfort. As we grow more obese, both literally and figuratively, the drive to protect our God given rights decays and the enslavement of man by Satan becomes more of reality. Wickedness abounds when we ignore our duty to be righteous men and women.

Believe that you are doing His work in such simple ways as sharing knowledge here on this forum respectfully with others. Then, get out on the track and fight like 10 year old siblings to be just 0.1 second ahead of the other. All things are possible through Him.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled fun and games on asphalt.
 
90
114
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
20+ Years
MN
As a kid my grandfather used to take me along when he sat around with his cronies and had coffee some mornings. I was so pleased he wanted me to go along, but I did get a bit frightened because all they discuss was how the sky was falling. As a teenager I hung around with my best friend and we would occasionally hand out with his dad and his friends. They also thought the current generation and the state of the World/Government was coming to an end. We (my friend and I ) actually thought it was funny because we commented on the facts that we heard the same thing from our Grandparents.
The situation we are getting upset about is already slated for 2032 ( yeh, only two years longer than originally noted ) and not 2030 but it is just a projection and I am quite confident Americans will vote with their wallets and we will see delays in Infrastructure that push things out just like the clever invention of carbon credits made the fuel mileage demands of today difficult --- except with innovative improvements in fuel management, hybrids and EV we are pretty much there .

Mandates are sometimes needed ( EPA and air quality standards under Nixon began what folks consider the current phase ), but as Trackrats mandated belts, crumple zones, airbags, door beams, ABS, stability management, etc. are not only appreciated now, they are an integral part of why we can take a car on a road course and go 150 mph in a street car.
At 130mph in a 68 Chrysler 300 with a 440 V8 the car was so unstable I slowed down as I knew one little gust of wind or something and I would be in a ditch -- or it could have been those tiny 14 inch tires that most cars came with.

I now have a car in the garage that came from the factory able to do 206 mph, and other that will run about 11 miles short of 200, yet we can not kid ourselves that without the mandates that occurred these would never have come to fruition. This is not to say I completely like mandated changes but over the years one has to stop and realize some have been for our safety and also because of the improvements. We need to stop for a second and realize 50% of something being EV ( history doesn't show we are likely to get to that level ) which also includes Hybrids, is nothing for the majority or us to even get upset about because it means 50% won't be. So , 8 years from now , if things actually meet a projected goal , we will have still see 50% of vehicles your plain ole ICE.

Humans do not like change but it is essential and as we go into what some believe is a Third Industrial Revolution ( with AI and various technological changes that seem like Sci-Fi ) I envy you who will be around to see this happen, but like when the death of the American Motorcycle ( Harley Davidson ) was foretold and new group saved it from extinction to become a new freedom style we all love in this Country. That same type of situation will likely keep ICE or Hybrid machines going well into the future , but the US needs to stay on the cutting edge to lead Worldwide technological trends.

Funny , do any of us take time to realize the World follows the US and our economics as the " Dollar " is the only true universal currency. When we lose that we will be on the downside as that will mean someone else has surpassed us. Keeping current, leading , and in a sense winning the " World Games " is in our genes and we can not sit on the sidelines now or in the future.

Nuff, said , the sky is not falling , we are just another Generation experiencing change , but as before we forget we determine outcomes very simply with our spending habits.
We'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 

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