Sell or build the roller

[kitsune1324]

Hey all, I've been teetering on this for quite a while and could really use some advice. I currently have a 2000 mustang with an IRS swap, fully caged and gutted, full suspension overhaul, FR500 ABS, and upgraded brakes, but currently has no engine or transmission. I calculated things out and to do the coyote swap I want (gen 2/3) and to have a fully working car (as well as a few mods to properly support it/etc), it would cost about 20k to complete. With that in mind, I would be building it myself (doing 95% of the work) but wouldn't be ready to start it for another couple years. Would it be worthwhile to build my 2000 or should I look into selling it and putting the effort into something else? My end goal is to have something reliable and capable in NASA ST2/ST3 but I wouldn't want to put any more than 30k into buying a complete car. Building the car has benefits as the coyote is reliable, I know the car, and parts are relatively cheap, but a newer chassis would probably perform better. Any advice/input?

 

[Stangra]

I wouldn't want to put any more than 30k into buying a complete car.

I'm no expert, but I think you could find a very capable S197 with a coyote (Gen 1 though) and have enough left to make a few upgrades.


And, as you've said...

...a newer chassis would probably perform better.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Tough decision either way and you have taken the time to figure out the financial costs, but with many that is often overweighed by the pleasure of doing the work yourself.

At this point, while you are balancing both options, why not put the car up for Sale and see if someone who has not done the math jumps at your car. That may help you make a decision one way or another , because if the money is fair you may decide to purchase something pre-built and if not you may decide to forge ahead with a build.

 

[kitsune1324]

I'm no expert, but I think you could find a very capable S197 with a coyote (Gen 1 though) and have enough left to make a few upgrades.


And, as you've said...

But how much more competitive would it be? I'm having a hard time finding concrete answers especially when it comes to the IRS. Typically I'm seeing that out of the box, the s197 is MUCH better than the SN95/New Edge, but how much of a difference is two kitted out cars? My other concern is I don't want to build a car again, I'm happy to build my car further if it comes to it but there's little to be gained in buying another car building it vs buying one that's already been built.

Tough decision either way and you have taken the time to figure out the financial costs, but with many that is often overweighed by the pleasure of doing the work yourself.

At this point, while you are balancing both options, why not put the car up for Sale and see if someone who has not done the math jumps at your car. That may help you make a decision one way or another , because if the money is fair you may decide to purchase something pre-built and if not you may decide to forge ahead with a build.

I definitely took a look into the financials a few times. I like the idea of potentially putting it up for sale and seeing what happens, but how would/should I price it? Here's a list of most of the mods and what they cost. I do know I will NOT be getting a 1-1 on the return, but even a ballpark asking figure would be nice. Help is appreciated!!

Part	Price
Pyrotect elite seat x2	1200
Custom roll cage	3000
Racecapture MK2 datalogger w/ dash tablet	300
Rugged Radio RP6100 radio	800
G-Force 6-point harness x2	600
Forgestar F14 18x11 wheels (+22 offset)	1100
Tubular front bumper w/ tow hook	120
Chicane23 carbon fiber hood	1000
03/04 cobra front bumper	150
Fully Torqued Racing Boss 302 front brake kit	600
Canton racing Accusump	500
Champion 3-row aluminum radiator	150
SPA Technique AFFF-AR Fire System	400
Halotron 2.5lb Fire Extinguisher	160
03/04 Cobra IRS w/ Maximum Motorsports derlin bushings	2500
Ford Racing differential cover	300
Front and rear braided brake lines	200
Maximum Motorsports MM3 Race coilovers w/ caster/camber plates	2000
Maximum Motorsports front control arms (non-offset)	350
Maximum Motorsports steering shaft	300
2000 Cobra R steering rack	200
Eibach rear IRS sway bar	200
FR500 ABS module	600
Front upgraded sway bar	200
Steeda bumpsteer kit	150
Maximum Motorsports full-length subframe connectors	200

Some prices are new, some are used (most are), but for the most part the list is complete.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

You can list the car something like this:
2000 Cobra Racecar, gutted , caged, IRS swap, racing seats, CF hood, radio set up, Forgestar 18x11 wheels, and much , much more. Needs motor and transmission, driveshaft and ready to go . Over 22 ,000 invested ( or whatever you have ) , asking 15,000 ( example ) or OBO

You could substitute where it says " and much, much more " simply as " plus 14 other mods, " or whatever the real number is. This will keep the ad quick and readable and may pique someone's interest. Folks who contact you, you can offer a full list and even offer the full pricing of items , and also state , jokingly ,you are not charging for all the labor, ha.

You might even list " rust free," if it is an Arizona car and can be stated as such. These are just few ideas and you can work on your own version.

 

[Scootsmcgreggor]

One thing to consider as well is if you realistically expect to keep either of these cars for the foreseeable future? Is anything other than performance a priority? If so which one would make you happier 10yrs from now, not from a performance perspective, but everything else? I've sold a couple past projects with less performance than I have now, trading up with a strict focus on performance. Though as time goes on I really miss them and think that I'd actually rather have them now.

 

[Dave_W]

My end goal is to have something reliable and capable in NASA ST2/ST3 but I wouldn't want to put any more than 30k into buying a complete car.

"Capable" is a bit ambiguous when trying to nail down desired performance. Could mean very different things to different people - capable of having fun at the local/regioinal level and not coming in last in class, capable of winning national championships, or anywhere in-between.

I have absolutely no real-world experience comparing the two, but I think the biggest performance differences between the SN95 and S197 (beside engine) are the rear suspension design and torsional stiffness of the unibody. You've already done the IRS swap to fix the trainagulated 4-link mess, and a well-designed roll cage goes a long way to overcoming the (comparitive) wet-noodle-factor of the SN95.

Selling your car will be a financial loss. When selling a racecar, you never get anywhere near what the construction cost was. Plus there's usually an emotional value to a car you built yourself that the next buyer doesn't have. Basically, you've got a "roller" which the buyer will have to finish, discounting the sale price even further.

One factor that would guide me is how quickly I can get on the track. Being able to buy a car that's been on a national podium and has a current logbook gets you on the track tomorrow. Trying to save up for the ultimate build when you're living hand-to-mouth may never happen. Most of us are somewhere in-between. My theory is start with safe and reliable, get seat time, and add speed as funds and skill are available. Your skill level increases faster by driving a slow car fast than it does driving a fast car moderately, especially for novices.

Midway Mustang has some Gen 3 Coyote with MT-82 dropouts for about $9k; the Ford control pack is another $2K on the street. Swap in the GT500 pump & pan kit from FRPP and an external oil cooler (-12AN lines highly recommended). Not sure if the Gen 3 needs the GT500 baffled valve cover swap, but adding separator/catch can(s) is probably a to-do, at least on the passenger side. So you've got another couple grand in all that. Tremec swap when you have funds.

I took a quick look at RacingJunk.com and didn't see any Mustang NASA ST cars, but found a couple Mustangs listed in the NASA American Iron section. I don't know if these are representative of overall prep/price levels as I don't follow this area, but you may have a better feel for the market.
2003 SN95 w/ dry-sumped "prototype" 4.6L and 9" rear, SLA front, Tex T101A trans (AIX only?) - $19,500

Race Cars, Parts, Trailers & Engines for Sale | RacingJunk Classifieds

Race Cars, Parts, Trailers & Engines for Sale | RacingJunk Classifieds

www.racingjunk.com

2009 S197 w/ Gen 3 engine, needs trans (Tremec swap?), multi-year regional NASA AI champ - $32,500

American Iron Mustang-Coyote for sale in OVERLAND PARK, KS, Price: $32,500

American Iron Mustang-Coyote for sale in OVERLAND PARK, KS, Price: $32,500

www.racingjunk.com

I think the folks here can give you a lot of data points, but in the end it's a decision you'll be making, and we can't know how much emotional connection and value you put on being able to put a "Built, Not Bought" sticker on the rear bumper. And how much time & money you can put toward getting something on track soon.

 

[kitsune1324]

You can list the car something like this:
2000 Cobra Racecar, gutted , caged, IRS swap, racing seats, CF hood, radio set up, Forgestar 18x11 wheels, and much , much more. Needs motor and transmission, driveshaft and ready to go . Over 22 ,000 invested ( or whatever you have ) , asking 15,000 ( example ) or OBO

You could substitute where it says " and much, much more " simply as " plus 14 other mods, " or whatever the real number is. This will keep the ad quick and readable and may pique someone's interest. Folks who contact you, you can offer a full list and even offer the full pricing of items , and also state , jokingly ,you are not charging for all the labor, ha.

You might even list " rust free," if it is an Arizona car and can be stated as such. These are just few ideas and you can work on your own version.

This is a very good idea, I'll try to get more info and will probably post something within the next week or two. Rust free is probably a huge thing as I moved to VA about a year and a half ago.

One thing to consider as well is if you realistically expect to keep either of these cars for the foreseeable future? Is anything other than performance a priority? If so which one would make you happier 10yrs from now, not from a performance perspective, but everything else? I've sold a couple past projects with less performance than I have now, trading up with a strict focus on performance. Though as time goes on I really miss them and think that I'd actually rather have them now.

Now you're playing with my heart strings.. I plan to keep whatever car I get for a long time, so I want something that'll last (anything with a stock NA coyote w/ a few longevity mods should be perfect). All in all, I want to be very competitive. I'm not looking to be the top spot, there'll always be someone else, but I want to be up there or at least near it. This whole thing stems from me wanting to not waste my time and money and end up wishing I went another direction, but you're right, sentimental value could go a long way. Gotta say, with the 3.8l (heavily modified, made 275/275 NA) it was a blast to outperform the pp1 s550's.

 

[kitsune1324]

Big reply so I'm gonna split it up..

"Capable" is a bit ambiguous when trying to nail down desired performance. Could mean very different things to different people - capable of having fun at the local/regioinal level and not coming in last in class, capable of winning national championships, or anywhere in-between.

I want to be competitive in the regional level. Probably not right away, but I would love to join some of the championship races once I'm ready and can afford to travel further (It's coming, just gotta get my wife through her second college degree)

I have absolutely no real-world experience comparing the two, but I think the biggest performance differences between the SN95 and S197 (beside engine) are the rear suspension design and torsional stiffness of the unibody. You've already done the IRS swap to fix the trainagulated 4-link mess, and a well-designed roll cage goes a long way to overcoming the (comparitive) wet-noodle-factor of the SN95.

One of the things I've had the hardest time trying to find is any real comparison of the IRS to something from the boss years and S550+, but the cage and subframe connectors made an extremely noticeable difference, night and day really.

Selling your car will be a financial loss. When selling a racecar, you never get anywhere near what the construction cost was. Plus there's usually an emotional value to a car you built yourself that the next buyer doesn't have. Basically, you've got a "roller" which the buyer will have to finish, discounting the sale price even further.

I've thought of this and potentially throwing in an engine/trans to just get it moving as to motivate a buyer, but you're absolutely right, selling as a roller could potentially be a huge loss.

One factor that would guide me is how quickly I can get on the track. Being able to buy a car that's been on a national podium and has a current logbook gets you on the track tomorrow. Trying to save up for the ultimate build when you're living hand-to-mouth may never happen. Most of us are somewhere in-between. My theory is start with safe and reliable, get seat time, and add speed as funds and skill are available. Your skill level increases faster by driving a slow car fast than it does driving a fast car moderately, especially for novices.

I've been driving this guy on track when it was a stock v6 and I have a few hundred hours in sim racing. Money is only an issue right now but will completely clear up within the next few years, just waiting for the wife to finish her degree, but I should be able to gather enough to start before she's done..we'll see.

Midway Mustang has some Gen 3 Coyote with MT-82 dropouts for about $9k; the Ford control pack is another $2K on the street. Swap in the GT500 pump & pan kit from FRPP and an external oil cooler (-12AN lines highly recommended). Not sure if the Gen 3 needs the GT500 baffled valve cover swap, but adding separator/catch can(s) is probably a to-do, at least on the passenger side. So you've got another couple grand in all that. Tremec swap when you have funds.

I took a look at that, I would probably go with a complete gen3 from LKQ (now sitting around 6k), get the control pack, and pick up a tkx trans. If prices are really bad I may try to get a crate motor if it's more reasonable.

I took a quick look at RacingJunk.com and didn't see any Mustang NASA ST cars, but found a couple Mustangs listed in the NASA American Iron section. I don't know if these are representative of overall prep/price levels as I don't follow this area, but you may have a better feel for the market.
2003 SN95 w/ dry-sumped "prototype" 4.6L and 9" rear, SLA front, Tex T101A trans (AIX only?) - $19,500

Race Cars, Parts, Trailers & Engines for Sale | RacingJunk Classifieds

Race Cars, Parts, Trailers & Engines for Sale | RacingJunk Classifieds

www.racingjunk.com

2009 S197 w/ Gen 3 engine, needs trans (Tremec swap?), multi-year regional NASA AI champ - $32,500

American Iron Mustang-Coyote for sale in OVERLAND PARK, KS, Price: $32,500

American Iron Mustang-Coyote for sale in OVERLAND PARK, KS, Price: $32,500

www.racingjunk.com

I think the folks here can give you a lot of data points, but in the end it's a decision you'll be making, and we can't know how much emotional connection and value you put on being able to put a "Built, Not Bought" sticker on the rear bumper. And how much time & money you can put toward getting something on track soon.

I appreciate you finding those, I saw the SN95 but completely missed the s197. It's a hard choice as if I'm already spending 30k I'd rather not have to make any modifications. I've floated around the idea of grabbing a cheap s550 for ~22k and throwing a cage/whatever is necessary in it, but then I feel like I'd be back in the same hole. I guess the major difference there is it's a much better starting point with future upgradablility. My current car is kind of nearing its limit. All in all, I'm going to save my money until I'm ready to spend it all at once, I don't want to keep buying little by little and feel like I'm stuck with something/miss a great deal somewhere.

If I keep this car you know I will have a nice "Built, Not Bought" sticker on the rear!

 

[kitsune1324]

I took a quick look at RacingJunk.com and didn't see any Mustang NASA ST cars, but found a couple Mustangs listed in the NASA American Iron section. I don't know if these are representative of overall prep/price levels as I don't follow this area, but you may have a better feel for the market.
2003 SN95 w/ dry-sumped "prototype" 4.6L and 9" rear, SLA front, Tex T101A trans (AIX only?) - $19,500

Race Cars, Parts, Trailers & Engines for Sale | RacingJunk Classifieds

Race Cars, Parts, Trailers & Engines for Sale | RacingJunk Classifieds

www.racingjunk.com

2009 S197 w/ Gen 3 engine, needs trans (Tremec swap?), multi-year regional NASA AI champ - $32,500

American Iron Mustang-Coyote for sale in OVERLAND PARK, KS, Price: $32,500

American Iron Mustang-Coyote for sale in OVERLAND PARK, KS, Price: $32,500

www.racingjunk.com

Not on Racing Junk, but AJ Hartman is selling his New Edge for 25k! While I can't afford that at the moment, it seems like a crazy deal. He's even selling the molds with it for another 5k.

 

[Drlee50]

id go LS swap on that car. WAY cheaper. and probably more power per dollar and reliability. gen 1 coyote motors for serious track use are not as reliable as gen 3 or even LS
My 2 cents

 

[Dave_W]

@kitsune1324 - if you haven't read this thread already, grab a beverage of your choice, a light snack, and dig in. Very detailed info on the evolution of a high-quality S197 build, including Gen 3 Coyote in the recent history.

S197 3V - Fabman's build; How did we get here? Build Thread

I have been asked to start a build thread for my little project pony. Its probably a little different than what you might expect to see in a track car, but it's because of the route that took me here that made it what it is. Different. It's not a Boss or a GT 350 or even a GT 500. It's just a...

trackmustangsonline.com

 

[blacksheep-1]

Or...
You could build a pushrod engine based on the A sedan rules, which is a drop in, and prolly a lot cheaper in the long run.