I’m looking for feedback to improve my driving skills and lap times.
This was my second time at this track and my fourth track day overall.
Thanks.
This was my second time at this track and my fourth track day overall.
Thanks.
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S550 Feedback request
- Thread starterRedStallion27
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Keep in mind here, baby steps with all of this. It's very rarely a case of, "Just send it", and this isn't one of them.
There's more to be had on the brakes and entry. The car is perfectly stable and the tires are quiet until you turn the wheel. That lets us know there's more there. The next time out, run your laps just as you always have, but take 100% notice of all of your brake application points. There are 4 parts to a brake zone, The application/ramp-up, peak, hold and trail. As the day goes, try moving those brake points closer to the corner by 1 car length at a time. If we find we're having to apply the brakes too hard at the end of the brake zone, then we probably didn't use enough pressure on the peak or hold portion of the brake curve. Also, we might have been slow on the lead-in. We can't just stomp the brakes of a GT car, but we apply them as quickly as possible without upsetting the car.
We don't have brake displayed here, but it looks/sounds like you're kind of dumping the brake pressure and cranking the steering at the same time. It causes the front to wash, but you're doing a good job of adding wheel to get it to turn. Too many times drives will just simply not turn the wheel, enough. Regardless, your turn-in's are a bit late (try 1 car length earlier), so we have to crank in a lot all at once, which washes the front and gives a bad angle at the apex. We want to move your entire brake zone towards the apex of the corner. Start later, use more pressure in the straight line portion & then release slower and trail at least 1/3rd of the way into the corner. If you've carried enough speed into the corner, you'll need the trail to get the car to turn. If you have to make that big steering addition, then you want it a little before the apex to get the final rotation or to do the final slowing the car needs. As quickly as we put it in, we need to take it out, because there's the apex and it's time to go to gas. The goal is to carry enough speed into the corner we have to slow the car all the way to the apex. Especially with a heavy, front-engine car, we want to avoid steady-state max-lateral as much as we can. That's a game for Miatas. We want to either be on the gas or on the brake.
On the exit side of the corner, your goal is to be full-throttle at or around the apex, depending on corner geometry. Your goal on the front side of the corner is to arrive at the apex with the correct speed and trajectory to be full-throttle at that point. To do this, you'll have to use more exit road than you're presently using. You may actually take a MPH or two off your mid-corner rolling speeds, that's the compromise to make as long as we get to full throttle. There are corners where this is not the case, of course, but this is a good, general-purpose rule when thinking about how to go faster. If we have to slowly apply the throttle all the way to the exit, then we hit the apex at either the wrong speed or wrong trajectory.
TeeLew-ism (This one is pretty high on the list) - Where we initiate throttle is inconsequential. Where we reach full-throttle is vital. Very often, the one who initiates first gets to full last.
There's more to be had on the brakes and entry. The car is perfectly stable and the tires are quiet until you turn the wheel. That lets us know there's more there. The next time out, run your laps just as you always have, but take 100% notice of all of your brake application points. There are 4 parts to a brake zone, The application/ramp-up, peak, hold and trail. As the day goes, try moving those brake points closer to the corner by 1 car length at a time. If we find we're having to apply the brakes too hard at the end of the brake zone, then we probably didn't use enough pressure on the peak or hold portion of the brake curve. Also, we might have been slow on the lead-in. We can't just stomp the brakes of a GT car, but we apply them as quickly as possible without upsetting the car.
We don't have brake displayed here, but it looks/sounds like you're kind of dumping the brake pressure and cranking the steering at the same time. It causes the front to wash, but you're doing a good job of adding wheel to get it to turn. Too many times drives will just simply not turn the wheel, enough. Regardless, your turn-in's are a bit late (try 1 car length earlier), so we have to crank in a lot all at once, which washes the front and gives a bad angle at the apex. We want to move your entire brake zone towards the apex of the corner. Start later, use more pressure in the straight line portion & then release slower and trail at least 1/3rd of the way into the corner. If you've carried enough speed into the corner, you'll need the trail to get the car to turn. If you have to make that big steering addition, then you want it a little before the apex to get the final rotation or to do the final slowing the car needs. As quickly as we put it in, we need to take it out, because there's the apex and it's time to go to gas. The goal is to carry enough speed into the corner we have to slow the car all the way to the apex. Especially with a heavy, front-engine car, we want to avoid steady-state max-lateral as much as we can. That's a game for Miatas. We want to either be on the gas or on the brake.
On the exit side of the corner, your goal is to be full-throttle at or around the apex, depending on corner geometry. Your goal on the front side of the corner is to arrive at the apex with the correct speed and trajectory to be full-throttle at that point. To do this, you'll have to use more exit road than you're presently using. You may actually take a MPH or two off your mid-corner rolling speeds, that's the compromise to make as long as we get to full throttle. There are corners where this is not the case, of course, but this is a good, general-purpose rule when thinking about how to go faster. If we have to slowly apply the throttle all the way to the exit, then we hit the apex at either the wrong speed or wrong trajectory.
TeeLew-ism (This one is pretty high on the list) - Where we initiate throttle is inconsequential. Where we reach full-throttle is vital. Very often, the one who initiates first gets to full last.
- Thread starter
- #3
What an incredible response. Thank you for taking the time to critique and write all of this out.
It's a lot to process and work on (for a new guy). I'll be at a different track in October and will have the opportunity to try these things. And as you suggested, I will progress with baby steps.
I appreciate it.
- 607
- 647
I don’t know that track personally but if that is Blackhawk farms, then just by comparing your video to the old discontinued lap time thread, it looks like you just threw down one of the fastest laps on here. Very nice driving, something tells me you might have a little track driving-adjacent experience from somewhere haha. But seriously, congrats.
I’m on a small screen and it’s hard to tell for sure but can you maybe go a smidge later apex on some of the turns heading on to the straights, get in the gas even sooner?
Great lap, now @TeeLew’s awesome feedback will make you even quicker!
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I'm going to link my lap to a similarly tight track i have driven. I have a brake pressure bar on the left side of the display. Hadn't worked out how to map it to the brake beside the throttle trace at that point but watch it at slow speed and you get the idea. Hopefully i live up to @TeeLew response about brake application .
What i'm going to point out is hand placement. Its a tighter track to the last one you posted where you didn't have this issue. You maintain hands at 9 & 3 on the wheel all the way through the really tight turns. At max turn your lower hand is effectively just a thumb on the wheel and your top hand is shaking sideways. I've done this demo with others who drive more 10 & 2 or even higher. Get someone to do it with you. With your hand at the worst position try hold the wheel still while someone shakes the wheel through the window with just 2 fingers at the 9 position. You have next to no actual control as your muscles don't function in that direction. It means any feed back from the car isn't being felt directly as its being diluted by wobbly arms. Do it again with your hands a 9 & 3 and them pushing the top of the wheel and you easily overpower their inputs. Loosen your grip and just hold with your finger and feel the feedback.
My other initial thought from you video was it appeared you had a death grip on the wheel, possibly because of the hand positions.
My video starts off at some very tight hairpins and you can see i take an extra bite on the wheel and set my hands such that at full turn they don't get to 90 degrees meaning i have more control of the wheel input. On exit i step them back into that 9 & 3 position. Bit hard to see in the dark but my main contact with the wheel is with my fingers especially in the braking and initial turn in stage. What i'm trying to explain is that light hands on the wheel allow you to feel the subtle feedback from the wheels in that zone so you can feel the grip. At 1-08 i crank the wheel a bit quick and instantly understeer but i feel it instantly and can wind it back and take a second smoother bite. If i was strangling the wheel i wouldn't feel the subtle unload of force feedback telling me i lost traction.
Driving is a feedback loop, you supply the inputs and you need to be able to feel the results back to know it it was good or bad. The better you get at that feedback loop the closer you can drive to the limit or even a bit over it. Track time is your tuning of that which you are doing. Seat/harness, suspension are all aids in improving the level of feedback. As we mentioned in your previous track session sliding around in the seat massively dilutes your ability to feel what is going on.
trackmustangsonline.com
What i'm going to point out is hand placement. Its a tighter track to the last one you posted where you didn't have this issue. You maintain hands at 9 & 3 on the wheel all the way through the really tight turns. At max turn your lower hand is effectively just a thumb on the wheel and your top hand is shaking sideways. I've done this demo with others who drive more 10 & 2 or even higher. Get someone to do it with you. With your hand at the worst position try hold the wheel still while someone shakes the wheel through the window with just 2 fingers at the 9 position. You have next to no actual control as your muscles don't function in that direction. It means any feed back from the car isn't being felt directly as its being diluted by wobbly arms. Do it again with your hands a 9 & 3 and them pushing the top of the wheel and you easily overpower their inputs. Loosen your grip and just hold with your finger and feel the feedback.
My other initial thought from you video was it appeared you had a death grip on the wheel, possibly because of the hand positions.
My video starts off at some very tight hairpins and you can see i take an extra bite on the wheel and set my hands such that at full turn they don't get to 90 degrees meaning i have more control of the wheel input. On exit i step them back into that 9 & 3 position. Bit hard to see in the dark but my main contact with the wheel is with my fingers especially in the braking and initial turn in stage. What i'm trying to explain is that light hands on the wheel allow you to feel the subtle feedback from the wheels in that zone so you can feel the grip. At 1-08 i crank the wheel a bit quick and instantly understeer but i feel it instantly and can wind it back and take a second smoother bite. If i was strangling the wheel i wouldn't feel the subtle unload of force feedback telling me i lost traction.
Driving is a feedback loop, you supply the inputs and you need to be able to feel the results back to know it it was good or bad. The better you get at that feedback loop the closer you can drive to the limit or even a bit over it. Track time is your tuning of that which you are doing. Seat/harness, suspension are all aids in improving the level of feedback. As we mentioned in your previous track session sliding around in the seat massively dilutes your ability to feel what is going on.
Track Time Videos
Is that Vegas? Drove by that track a million times, looks like a fun one!
trackmustangsonline.com- Thread starter
- #7
Thank you for the feedback. This was my first time driving with a harness which allowed me to relax my hands a bit on the steering wheel, but it's still a habit I need to break further. Your points about holding too tight and the corresponding feedback damping make a lot of sense.I'm going to link my lap to a similarly tight track i have driven. I have a brake pressure bar on the left side of the display. Hadn't worked out how to map it to the brake beside the throttle trace at that point but watch it at slow speed and you get the idea. Hopefully i live up to @TeeLew response about brake application .
What i'm going to point out is hand placement. Its a tighter track to the last one you posted where you didn't have this issue. You maintain hands at 9 & 3 on the wheel all the way through the really tight turns. At max turn your lower hand is effectively just a thumb on the wheel and your top hand is shaking sideways. I've done this demo with others who drive more 10 & 2 or even higher. Get someone to do it with you. With your hand at the worst position try hold the wheel still while someone shakes the wheel through the window with just 2 fingers at the 9 position. You have next to no actual control as your muscles don't function in that direction. It means any feed back from the car isn't being felt directly as its being diluted by wobbly arms. Do it again with your hands a 9 & 3 and them pushing the top of the wheel and you easily overpower their inputs. Loosen your grip and just hold with your finger and feel the feedback.
My other initial thought from you video was it appeared you had a death grip on the wheel, possibly because of the hand positions.
My video starts off at some very tight hairpins and you can see i take an extra bite on the wheel and set my hands such that at full turn they don't get to 90 degrees meaning i have more control of the wheel input. On exit i step them back into that 9 & 3 position. Bit hard to see in the dark but my main contact with the wheel is with my fingers especially in the braking and initial turn in stage. What i'm trying to explain is that light hands on the wheel allow you to feel the subtle feedback from the wheels in that zone so you can feel the grip. At 1-08 i crank the wheel a bit quick and instantly understeer but i feel it instantly and can wind it back and take a second smoother bite. If i was strangling the wheel i wouldn't feel the subtle unload of force feedback telling me i lost traction.
Driving is a feedback loop, you supply the inputs and you need to be able to feel the results back to know it it was good or bad. The better you get at that feedback loop the closer you can drive to the limit or even a bit over it. Track time is your tuning of that which you are doing. Seat/harness, suspension are all aids in improving the level of feedback. As we mentioned in your previous track session sliding around in the seat massively dilutes your ability to feel what is going on.
Track Time Videos
Is that Vegas? Drove by that track a million times, looks like a fun one!
Regarding hand position - I'm still stuck in the "stay at 9 and 3" that was repeated over and over by my instructors. I understand why that's the best path for a complete beginner, but I also think I can start (slowly) progressing beyond that basic strategy. I looked back at my video and couldn't believe how far my arms were twisted. There's no way I had accurate control or feedback in that position. I have a question about this - what's the best strategy when multiple turns are close to each other? (e.g. @ 32 second mark in my video)
- Thread starter
- #8
Thank you. Yes it is Blackhawk Farms and my lap times were somewhat respectable. There were definitely more capable cars and more experienced drivers, but it seemed that many weren't driving their cars very hard. Being so new, I'm not sure whether this is normal at HPDE events.
I know my car still has a lot to give and, more importantly, I have a lot to learn. I'm trying to develop the right habits to push the car harder in the safest way possible.
My goal regarding apexes aligns with your feedback - late apex on turns heading onto straights. I'll keep working to perfect that piece, as my reading tells me it is the most important contributor to a good lap time.
Blackhawk is a little place, but it's a challenging track that asks a lot of the car. Before it was repaved is was very good for simulating a street course. I don't know if that's praise, but it was useful.
There's a little more to it than simply later apex. Sooner or later, we turn in late enough that we can't get to the apex. In generaly, the more speed you carry into a corner or the higher speed the corner is, the earlier you need to turn in. A hairpin will have an exaggerated late turn-in, while something like The Kink wants an earlier, softer turn.
Here's the logic. You're turning in late for a hairpin, because you want to condense the turning in a small part of the corner by slowing down and running a very tight radius. This to allows us to open our hands and go to gas. If we tried to roll maximum speed around the corner with the most open radius, then either the front or the rear tires would be on their lateral limit all the way to the exit curb. They have nothing left to give longitudinally and we get to gas impossibly late.
In a fast corner, make the apex. It's non-negotiable. Do this by turning in as late as you feel comfortable, but as early as necessary to leave no question in your mind whether or not you're going to get there. It gives you options. If you've turned in early or not carried enough entry speed, you might drop a tire or hit the inside curb. Relax the steering, problem solved. We've over-cooked the entry a little, hold a little more steering lock in the middle to stay on the apex for an extra color to slow/turn the car. If you've *really* overcooked the entry, then just don't go to gas. You'll have road, because at least you know you made your apex. The higher entry line will be a little faster in some cases. Experiment with the turn-in point by about 1/2 car length increments, but understand the penalty for turning-in too late in a fast corner and missing the apex gets big quickly. Eventually you get in the pick-up and crap on the track and then you are well and truly ......ed.
As far as HPDE days, it varies. It would not surprise me if several novice drivers will not hold full throttle on the straight, so appreciate that's just where they are when around them. Assume they have absolutely no idea you're there. Until you've seen a car brake and understand how it's being driven, be aware they may be several board earlier than you. It's really easy to run up on someone in a brake zone.
With multiple turns, it's more a case of muscle memory. If you are setting up for a tight turn you know you are grabbing the wheel about 45° or more above your usual hold position. As you feed the wheel back from one you step your hands around the wheel to the opposite side. Honestly its totally subconscious.
Given it was drummed into you to hold the wheel at a constant 9 & 3 its going to be a case of break that first. Familiarity with the circuit will be part of that. Do it at a slow speed and find your spot on the wheel where you can get enough lock and not have your top hand get to 90. Your profile says under 3 years so all tracks are still new to you. I have 30 years on the same tracks, it makes a difference. I can look at photos of a corner and tell you where it is, its that level of time that makes you comfortable. Like i mentioned, i don't consciously think, i know how much lock i will need and just do it.
As so many members mention, seat time is the best "mod" to start with. What you discover there determines what you do next. Like you mentioned, a harness has made a difference. No more sliding around the seat. It was only after you mentioned that, that it triggered my memory of your current video, you weren't re-adjusting after each corner like your first video. Progress.
The video i linked is where i got my friend to start learning because you are constantly turning and top speed isn't that high. The video starts at the first right hand hairpin at the top of the section i have clipped below. Way tighter than your Blackhawk Farms.
Even that tight you can see i'm not rushed on the wheel.
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