1969 Mach 1…where to start

[Dave_W]

For picking an engine, figure out what fuel you want to run first - race gas, premium, or regular. That makes a huge difference in the choices that are available. Also realize that bigger displacement stroker engines are swinging the crank in bigger circles, and that effectively limits the rpm you can run (or makes more rpm more expensive). A 351W-based 427 may redline under 6000rpm, where a 302-based 347 can likely spin to 7000+ without needing crazy parts. And to me, nothing sounds better than a screaming, wound-out engine.

Take a look at the 302- and 351-based long blocks from Ford Performance for ideas. The 351/427 makes 543 horsepower @ 5,900 rpm, but also says "Maximum recommended rpm: 5,600 RPM" - so the max HP is 300 rpm past the redline. On the other hand, the 302/363 is listed at 507 horsepower @ 6500 rpm. Both use a fuily-forged rotating assembly (crank, rods, pistons).

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Ideally, I'd like to see a full dyno plot for these engines, as peak numbers tell you very little about the drivability of the engine. You can glean a bit from how far apart the peak torque and horsepower numbers are. For a street/track dual-duty car, you want a broad, flat powerband. A very peaky engine is difficult to drive, as you're either constantly shifting to keep the engine in it's narrow "happy" rpm range, or falling out of the power band and lugging the engine.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Lots of good advice on things to do for a build , but I am going to back you up and suggest you consider what Blacksheep 1 questioned you on. With over 30+ years selling vehicles, the majority being high performance machines I will politely suggest you leave a 69 , 52,000 original mile Mach 1 stock, fixing only the items that need updating to make it a bit more roadworthy. The issue with taking this car and turning it into a track car is once you are done it will likely be worth less than the Mach 1 stock. I have been racing ( autocross, Time Trials, W2W ) since 1981 and have sold numerous track cars , both my own and at the Dealerships I worked and one seldom even comes out even on track cars.
On the flip side the amount of money you plan to spend you can easily get a used caged Mustang of some sort and end up with two Ponies in your corral. Depending on what your end goal is ( Autocross, Time Trials, Road Race ) , 40K would definitely open up alot of options.

There are a bunch of us on here who built our own Racecars and then the next time around we bought one already done, since even then there are things that will need updating and modified. It is a cheaper way to go by a long shot.

I may get flamed for this , but after selling over 3000 4 wheeled machines, along with close to 100 of my own, a 69 Mach 1 is likely better as a driver and kept stock if original and really nice as you noted.

 

[JDee]

Lots of good advice on things to do for a build , but I am going to back you up and suggest you consider what Blacksheep 1 questioned you on. With over 30+ years selling vehicles, the majority being high performance machines I will politely suggest you leave a 69 , 52,000 original mile Mach 1 stock, fixing only the items that need updating to make it a bit more roadworthy. The issue with taking this car and turning it into a track car is once you are done it will likely be worth less than the Mach 1 stock. I have been racing ( autocross, Time Trials, W2W ) since 1981 and have sold numerous track cars , both my own and at the Dealerships I worked and one seldom even comes out even on track cars.
On the flip side the amount of money you plan to spend you can easily get a used caged Mustang of some sort and end up with two Ponies in your corral. Depending on what your end goal is ( Autocross, Time Trials, Road Race ) , 40K would definitely open up alot of options.

There are a bunch of us on here who built our own Racecars and then the next time around we bought one already done, since even then there are things that will need updating and modified. It is a cheaper way to go by a long shot.

I may get flamed for this , but after selling over 3000 4 wheeled machines, along with close to 100 of my own, a 69 Mach 1 is likely better as a driver and kept stock if original and really nice as you noted.

Couldn't agree more Bill. It would almost be sacrilegious to cut up a classic car like that.

 

[GJarrett]

I was born in 1957 and my absolute dream car when I was a kid was the '69 Mach 1.... it was the poster hanging on my bedroom wall, etc.... and I still love it. I'd also be highly inclined to leaning toward the "keep it stockish" team of thought. Maybe "level 1" type mods to make it safer and a little better handling, but maintaining as much stock as possible. Either way, I'm jealous and will look forward to future updates on what you end up doing.

 

[Jungle_Jim]

Evening All!


Firstly, thank you all for your comments and suggestions. The car has been back for about 1 month and I have been really enjoying all the new additions. (Photos coming soon).

It’s has become very apparent that there are “hot rod” shops and actual shops ran by race guys. I have had several issues with the vehicle post the transmission swap but most have been small items. I have identified a new shop that I am going to have handle the items that keep popping up from the previous shop. I have tagged up with Mike Dusold of Dusold Designs and he has given me some great insight as to what is “needed” and what is a waste of money. Mike’s team took spots 1-3 in their respective classes at Superlap last month and really had an inviting group and shop. The car will be heading to him shortly (about a week) for some fixes from the previous shop as well as some needed additions…mainly putting in the new borg steering setup. Small issues will be fixed as well such as leaking transmission (yes the new one), AC fixes, and a bundle of little odds and ends. Mike will also be doing my suspension at the beginning of the year (going with the maier Mod 1). Also around that time I will be switching to 18” wheels with appropriate tires (currently on the old school 15”). I would like to stay quasi period correct and go with a 18” Shelby style wheel that you would find on the backdraft cobras…any experience with these? Most importantly will be the tires. Any recession for a solid tire for my needs?

To also note, the car was originally going to get a coyote swap but Mike has really pushed me with the ease of staying Windsor based. Are there any recommended builders you all can recommend for a 427”+ Windsor build? I’m aware of a lot of the crate engines out there but wasn’t sure if they made the most sense. Car will stay carb for awhile post the engine swap but ultimately will get FI and leaning towards a MOTEC…also with all the items associated with that.

Finally, I do have a number of exhaust leaks as it is the original system from ford. Given I am staying with the Windsor, can any of you make recommendations on headers/mufflers set up? Sizes would be really appreciated as well.

As always, thank you for all the comments and support. As being new, it is tremendously helpful and I am super thankful!

Mark

Sounds like you have a pretty big plan for this car from the first few posts. I'll appreciate the goals but I think there's maybe a little more of a reality check needed here. I don't know you or your situation so please don't take anything the wrong way but, there's a bit here that needs discussion.

For the lofty goals you have, you're going to need a lot more than $20k to throw at it if you're not doing a majority of the work yourself, which it sounds like you won't be. My recent 289 engine build was ~$7k in machine time and parts, I did all the assembly. I've also done custom wiring harnesses and worked with guys that do the real fancy motorsport level stuff, that'll set you back another $8-10k likely for anything one-off and setting up the ECU, tuning, etc. Serious chassis work done by someone else add another $10k.

You talk about what's "needed" vs what's a waste of money and honestly a lot of what you've talked about isn't close to what's "needed" for a car that's going to spend a majority of it's time on the street.

Lots of good advice on things to do for a build , but I am going to back you up and suggest you consider what Blacksheep 1 questioned you on. With over 30+ years selling vehicles, the majority being high performance machines I will politely suggest you leave a 69 , 52,000 original mile Mach 1 stock, fixing only the items that need updating to make it a bit more roadworthy. The issue with taking this car and turning it into a track car is once you are done it will likely be worth less than the Mach 1 stock. I have been racing ( autocross, Time Trials, W2W ) since 1981 and have sold numerous track cars , both my own and at the Dealerships I worked and one seldom even comes out even on track cars.
On the flip side the amount of money you plan to spend you can easily get a used caged Mustang of some sort and end up with two Ponies in your corral. Depending on what your end goal is ( Autocross, Time Trials, Road Race ) , 40K would definitely open up alot of options.

There are a bunch of us on here who built our own Racecars and then the next time around we bought one already done, since even then there are things that will need updating and modified. It is a cheaper way to go by a long shot.

I may get flamed for this , but after selling over 3000 4 wheeled machines, along with close to 100 of my own, a 69 Mach 1 is likely better as a driver and kept stock if original and really nice as you noted.

As much as I'm a proponent of "its your car, do what you want" I'll heavily agree with this. As nice as all the guys/shops OP has already talked to are (and they do good work), nearly all of them are folks with shops and they'll take your money to do whatever you like! OP, you already stated you don't have any track experience, you're not real mechanically inclined (which will be needed for maintenance), and you've got cash in hand and a very desirable / semi-rare car. I'd put money into refreshing what's there, some new wheels and tires, OE replacement "modernized" suspension from SoT or OTR (not needed to go CORTEX at all), some interior upgrades, and then enjoy the hell out of it. Take that $20k and putting it towards some of the "stock upgrade" parts like others have already suggested would net a REALLY nice driver that feels much more like a modern car. You talk about what's "needed" vs what's a waste of money and honestly a lot of what you've talked about isn't close to what's "needed" for a car that's going to spend a majority of it's time on the street.

If you'd then also like to do some track stuff, there are so many great "track prepped" cars out there selling for what you want to put into parts for this one! That's true of any motorsport. I see log-booked rally cars that are class ready for less than it takes to build come up for sale, regularly. For grip stuff, here's a foxbody local to me that is a LOT of car, especially for the $25k they're asking.

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Doing what I'm doing and "building a track car" is honestly the fools errand if it's not for a very specific reason. I'm not trying to push you away from a classic car as a track car, they're actually surprisingly "not bad". However, I'd get some seat time in a real, track-ready car before thinking you need a lot of these other items to go fast. Then at that point, something like a S550 mustang or a C6/C7 corvette (basphemous on a mustang board, i know) would be a much better "big power, go fast" car to look at for a start.

 

[racer47]

Save the Mach 1 for the street. '69 and '70 are arguably the best years. Buy a race car for the track.

"This is my first dip into classic cars and I am notably not very mechanically inclined but am making the best of YouTube efforts to learn."

Learn on a disposable, already built racecar. Not on a 69 Mach 1.

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[Ludachris]

However, I'd get some seat time in a real, track-ready car before thinking you need a lot of these other items to go fast.

I agree with this - before investing all the time, effort, and money into this project to do what you're planning, be sure you really get a feel for what it will be like when you're done. The more "track-ready" you make a car, the less "nice" it is to drive on the street. Many people turn cars into Frankensteins, trying to make them good at both the track and the street. Before you do that to a car that could result in a lot of regret later, I would say get more seat time in other cars and see if you might be happier going another route.

Like others have said though, whatever you decide to do with the car, I'll enjoy watching the progress.

 

[Thenapsack]

Lots of good advice on things to do for a build , but I am going to back you up and suggest you consider what Blacksheep 1 questioned you on. With over 30+ years selling vehicles, the majority being high performance machines I will politely suggest you leave a 69 , 52,000 original mile Mach 1 stock, fixing only the items that need updating to make it a bit more roadworthy. The issue with taking this car and turning it into a track car is once you are done it will likely be worth less than the Mach 1 stock. I have been racing ( autocross, Time Trials, W2W ) since 1981 and have sold numerous track cars , both my own and at the Dealerships I worked and one seldom even comes out even on track cars.
On the flip side the amount of money you plan to spend you can easily get a used caged Mustang of some sort and end up with two Ponies in your corral. Depending on what your end goal is ( Autocross, Time Trials, Road Race ) , 40K would definitely open up alot of options.

There are a bunch of us on here who built our own Racecars and then the next time around we bought one already done, since even then there are things that will need updating and modified. It is a cheaper way to go by a long shot.

I may get flamed for this , but after selling over 3000 4 wheeled machines, along with close to 100 of my own, a 69 Mach 1 is likely better as a driver and kept stock if original and really nice as you noted.

Absolutley solid points all around from you and everyone (I have zero ego on this stuff and am genuinely asking for any and all advice so please continue all the great responses to this post…trust me, no offense has or will be taken). I probably should have prefaced this in my last post but 100% the car will not be any kind of dedicated track car (mostly due to all the items outlined in here detailing exactly why not to do it). Furthermore, Dusold confirmed the same thing as you all have said with keeping the car a nice driver that is capable of putting some “poop in the pants” while still being able to hit up the bbq joints on Sundays with the family and some autocross/track days every once in awhile. He also noted the car being much too nice to go the full track route and as noted in a previous comment, to just go and buy a car already set up for track if I really want that. Sound advice for sure.

It is my hope though that if there is another “me” running around out there that this thread will help them decide what to do with some real life experience from my experiences and you fine folks. I think it is also important to know what to budget if you do not do your own work. I know there will be comments about me getting “ripped off” in some regards but it’s important to know what things will cost before going in and what to expect when you don’t do you own labor. I can tell you, it was not a cheap first run with the initial shop fees coming close to $30K parts and labor ($120.00hr). Now, some of that was things that just needed worked on and replaced with a basically original 1969 (the little stuff really does add up!). For the next guy looking at this, I would also note that the timeframe they are told and what to expect with re-work, test drives, parts not fitting…will certainly exceed what initial projections are. These forums and YouTube will absolutely be your friend. I believe I was originally told 6 weeks max and it took a little over 2 months. In reality, that is not a long time but it should be noted. I need to check the forum rules as I do not know the policy of posting receipts (with obvious information redacted). Perhaps someone could comment on that?

Given what has been spent and what will continue to be spent, it’s obvious I will not recoup a majority of it…and certainly if this was a boss or 428 I would have kept it as original as possible.

For the next guy that is also an important note on $$$ ROI vs “smiles and family experience” ROI.

I have, however, retained and will continue to retain all original parts that are removed in the event of a sale.

 

[Cyclone03]

If I had a low mile 69 Sport Roof I would duplicate the set up from the BOSS 302 Chassis Manual (stage 2 or 3).
Needing a shop to do the install that KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING WITH EARLY MUSTANGS is paramount! That will not be cheap!
There are several builders and suppliers of great Mustang chassis parts the problem is having them installed.
#1 For Vintage correct chassis would be Cobra Automotive,they will do in shop installs but be prepared for all or nothing,not cheap.
It’s been years but MACCO Automotive was also very good,Goggle “Original Venice Crew”
Mike Maier has GREAT suspension packages that are no nonsense ,I don’t know if he does in shop installs but 100% I would call him!
Next Shaun at Street Or Track his stuff is top shelf and he races what he sells,Mike does as well.
Be prepared for ANY track work,even Autocross,the chassis needs structural support.

If you want I can lay out a very capable street performance set up that is very confidence inspiring,that I have won autocross with. But it was all installed by me.

 

[OX1]

I mostly agree to keeping the Mach 1 closer to stock. But mostly because you are not seasoned
on building/maintaining even a street car (it sounds anyway), let alone "campaigning" a track car
(HUGE difference).

If I wanted something pretty maint free to bomb around the track (for that $$60ish K you are talking about),
I'd consider a salv title newer GT500. Don't even have to change from stock brake pads. 85% in that car
is pretty fast, and not really much danger of crashing. And they even ride pretty good on the street....
(way better than I was expecting).

Would have to check on insr for a salvage title (especially collector, which is what I would use),
But I have heard it is not too bad.

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[GJarrett]

I'd like to append my prior post voting to keep it as "stockish as possible"... I recently participated in a HPDE event where a 1st gen Camaro also ran. It looked pretty much original but holy cow it could run and also take the corners with the best of the modern vehicles. I don't know what he did to the suspension but no way it was anything near stock. But to the average observer, or just casually looking at it without crawling under it, one could never tell. He drove up looking like he just came from an antique car show, swapped out some track tires, and then ran that thing at what had to be close to 1g turns. I was gonna go take a closer look and meet the guy but never got around to it early in the day and then he left before the last session.

The thought of owning a '69 Mach1 that looked as original as that Camaro and still handled like it did gives me piloerections.

 

[Cyclone03]

I mostly agree to keeping the Mach 1 closer to stock. But mostly because you are not seasoned
on building/maintaining even a street car (it sounds anyway), let allowing "campaigning" a track car
(HUGE difference).

If I wanted something pretty maint free to bomb around the track (for that $$60ish K you are talking about),
I'd consider a salv title newer GT500. Don't even have to change from stock brake pads. 85% in that car
is pretty fast, and not really much danger of crashing. And they even ride pretty good on the street....
(way better than I was expecting).

Would have to check on insr for a salvage title (especially collector, which is what I would use),
But I have heard it is not too bad.

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Spot on. Even a performance pack current GT is an easy button for open lapping fun. I feel I’m very good at setting up Vintage Mustangs for street and vintage racing. A c6/c7 Vette, GT ,Mach,Dark Horse, Shelby GT 350 will out run all but a full race early Mustang.

 

[Cyclone03]

I'd like to append my prior post voting to keep it as "stockish as possible"... I recently participated in a HPDE event where a 1st gen Camaro also ran. It looked pretty much original but holy cow it could run and also take the corners with the best of the modern vehicles. I don't know what he did to the suspension but no way it was anything near stock. But to the average observer, or just casually looking at it without crawling under it, one could never tell. He drove up looking like he just came from an antique car show, swapped out some track tires, and then ran that thing at what had to be close to 1g turns. I was gonna go take a closer look and meet the guy but never got around to it early in the day and then he left before the last session.

The thought of owning a '69 Mach1 that looked as original as that Camaro and still handled like it did gives me piloerections.

I’m all Ford all the time(even though I suggest a Vette being the easy button) the early Camaro is a better chassis design than the Mustang.
The Camaro starts out with the engine sitting farther back than Mustang which helps balance,engine is also lower. Mod for mod the Camaro is better over all. Add in the fact the front of the Camaro can fit a 305 tire under a near stock fender and we have an up hill battle.


GJarret check out RideTechs 69 Mustang

 

[OX1]

I’m all Ford all the time(even though I suggest a Vette being the easy button) the early Camaro is a better chassis design than the Mustang.
The Camaro starts out with the engine sitting farther back than Mustang which helps balance,engine is also lower. Mod for mod the Camaro is better over all. Add in the fact the front of the Camaro can fit a 305 tire under a near stock fender and we have an up hill battle.


GJarret check out RideTechs 69 Mustang

The other thing to me is do you really want to crash (even "moderate" speeds of say 80) in a 60's body structure vehicle?
MAYBE if you have a full professional cage done. If only doing autocross type stuff, then wouldn't matter to me.

 

[PatrickStapler]

I’m sure there are many track prepared Mustangs that will roast my car. After our race on Friday we always give rides in Groups 1 & 2. I can say I got passed by one GT350R. I’m not saying I’m fast, trust me I’m not. But I felt pretty good being able to hold my own on tires with 20+ races on them. The riders also got out of the car with smiles for miles.

 

[JDee]

I’m all Ford all the time(even though I suggest a Vette being the easy button) the early Camaro is a better chassis design than the Mustang.
The Camaro starts out with the engine sitting farther back than Mustang which helps balance,engine is also lower. Mod for mod the Camaro is better over all. Add in the fact the front of the Camaro can fit a 305 tire under a near stock fender and we have an up hill battle.


GJarret check out RideTechs 69 Mustang

That's all true.
But GM can't decide if they want the Camaro or not. How many times have they killed it? I prefer knowing the company is in for the long haul and GM's record is abysmal on that.

Vettes are another story. My wife has a C8. Slick piece mostly, but some odd things in the design that are tough to deal with, especially since the average C8 owner is closer to 80 than 40.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

.............and too many of them that are 40 drive like they are 80, hehe!

 

[Cyclone03]

JDee my Camaro comment was more to 67-80 Camaro v. 67-70 Mustang chassis designs. I have little to no interest in any Chevys,but those C8’s I’m sure are fun.

 

[Thenapsack]

Evening All,

As some may know, this project has been one of constant changes and updates. In speaking with the builder, as well as taking all the great notes from you all, I have decided not to wave off on cutting the car and doing a lot of the “race specific” changes that would ultimately change the essence of the car…as well as dramatically challenge vehicle value in the long run.

However, the vehicle is still going through drivability upgrades (some more aggressive than others). At this time it is still with DuSold Designs as it was getting a lot of little items accomplished as I have been out of the country.

1. Throttle capable change as it was akin to pushing a 10lb weight on the accelerator pedal.
2. Swap to a borg power steering set up with the removal of the factory power steering
3. Removal and upgrade of most steering components
3. Thermostat change
4. Driver seat (factory) fixes
5. AC fix (ended up being a schrader valve) so a bit of relief there
6. Tick performance short shifter as well as modification to center the shifter. Original install left it far too much to the left putting second gear into the thigh. Also - shorter hurst shifter

Upon final test driving, I noted to Mike I was getting a super high whine from (what I thought) was the rear end with the 4.10 gear change. After about the second day of driving he noted the whine felt like it was coming from the transmission (yes, the new one). Upon dropping the pan, it apparently had a sheen akin to a bass boat. Soo, transmission has been sent out to RPM transmissions for a diagnostic. Given the high squeal was apparent at highway speeds in 5/6th gear…I’m anticipating it either ate something that came apart or there may have been a fluid issue or lack there of.

Good news however, the Maier subframe connectors should be arriving in a week or two with the Xbraxe soon to follow. Plan, as of now, is to have the front and rear Maier MOD 1 suspension installed in late Q1 along with the connectors and X brace.

More to come! Thanks as always for all the helpful support.

 

[blacksheep-1]

If I had a low mile 69 Sport Roof I would duplicate the set up from the BOSS 302 Chassis Manual (stage 2 or 3).
Needing a shop to do the install that KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING WITH EARLY MUSTANGS is paramount! That will not be cheap!
There are several builders and suppliers of great Mustang chassis parts the problem is having them installed.
#1 For Vintage correct chassis would be Cobra Automotive,they will do in shop installs but be prepared for all or nothing,not cheap.
It’s been years but MACCO Automotive was also very good,Goggle “Original Venice Crew”
Mike Maier has GREAT suspension packages that are no nonsense ,I don’t know if he does in shop installs but 100% I would call him!
Next Shaun at Street Or Track his stuff is top shelf and he races what he sells,Mike does as well.
Be prepared for ANY track work,even Autocross,the chassis needs structural support.

If you want I can lay out a very capable street performance set up that is very confidence inspiring,that I have won autocross with. But it was all installed by me.

This right here, if you're going to mod it, and I would highly, highly recomend these guys https://www.fortesonline.com/ I used to work there in the mid 80s through the 00s assembling engines and doing other stuff for them, It was started by their grandfather a WW2 B17 crew chief , carried on by his son, Dom and now run by his kids Chris and Tony. There is probably not a more knowledgeable person on those cars than Dom. They aren't cheap, they are backlogged, but IMO they are well worth the time and money spent if oyu want it done right, and somewhat period correct.

Click on the link, go find "the reaper" build. They did to a 69 Camaro what you want to do to your mustang.