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Anyone running a boosted mustang on road courses? IE Streets of Willow?

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16
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Time Attack
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SoCal
Seems like the consensus for boost juice is a possible 40 degree drop in IAT.
I usually don’t understand the “what if you run out” argument against running liquid products like octane booster, boost juice, methanol, or nitrous. Just keep the res full and have extra, it’s not tough. Sure some folks don’t like the financial implications but I’m neither worried nor have to worry about that aspect.
 
16
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Time Attack
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SoCal
Engine masters just did a show where they tested water and meth injection. Their conclusion, drop the water.
I’ve ran pure meth before and likely wouldn’t do it again. I’ll have to check on what the show concluded because I’ve seen folks run just water for temps, but not a fan of that due to corrosion… water/meth is generally known to be the ideal option to combat the low flash point of methanol and the corrosive nature of water in the intake tract.
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
984
1,275
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Autocross
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20+ Years
Connecticut
Temperature gain = (Pressure Ratio^0.28-1) x Absolute ambient air temp°

Then, you have to divide the above result by the efficiency % of whatever blower you are running. The nicest vortech units I believe were near 80%.

For 6psi of boost at 100°F ambient temperature for example:

((14.7psi + 6psi/14.7psi)^0.28-1) x 560°
Sweet, Rankine temperature scale. For when you want Absolute Zero = 0, but aren't snobby enough to use Celsius-based Kelvin. :D
I wonder how greatly boost juice (50/50 water meth) would affect this math.
Note that I'm not a thermodynamicist or HVAC engineer, so some of this is Scientific Wild-Assed Guess, but it should just add more layers of calculation around latent heat of vaporization.

Here's a list that includes methyl alcohol and water. It's probably at standard pressure and tempertaure instead of 140F and 6psig, but gives you a starting point.
This page lets you calculate water for different temperatures

If you know how many pounds you're injecting per hour, you can get the BTU cooling per hour due to vaporization from the BTU/lb number (assuming complete vaporization). At 5000rpm (2500 4-stroke intake cycles per minute) a 302ci engine is pulling in roughly 755,000ci or 437 cubic feet of air per minute. This page has calculations for "sensible heat" that we can reverse for temperature drop. Near the bottom it gets into advanced examples that account for humidity, but I'll use the simple equation.
The Imperial unit formula
BTU/hr = 1.08 * cfm * deltaT
converts to
BTU/hr / (1.08 * cfm) = deltaT

Back-of-napkin calculation
50/50 water/meth latent heat of vaporization is roughly 720 BTU/lb. I'll call this mix 8lb/gal. Snow's methanol FAQ says "For most engines in the 200-500hp range, the standard 3qt tank will last around a tank of gasoline." Say you go through 1/2 tank gas in a 30-minute session (SWAG) that gives you 1.5 gal/hr, IF the wm injection flow tracks the fuel injection flow (which there's a good chance it doesn't, but I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader). So that's 12lb/hr at 720 BTU/lb = 8640 BTU/hr.
8640 BTU/hr / (1.08 * 437 cfm) = 18.3F temperature drop

YMMV, operate at your own risk, objects are closer than they appear, no user serviceable parts inside, professional driver on a closed course, etc.
Anyone care to check my math?
 

PaddyPrix

If breakin' parts is cool, consider me Miles Davis
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San Diego
Looking forward to learning tons from this forum and hopefully not getting an SS1le like my "track" buddies have been pressuring me to do instead
So you'd get a naturally aspirated Camaro, but not Mustang?

If you come to a NASA event, @Hye Power runs a boosted s550, but we generally don't do Streets, instead opting for the faster Big Willow, and will be there next weekend.
 
1,246
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In the V6L
So, I'm late to this and maybe it's already been said, but here goes. When I had my 2011 Mustang GT with the newly introduced Coyote engine, I decided to stick a blower on top for track day use. I bought a TVS PD blower kit from Magnusson and bolted it on, loaded the canned Magnusson tune, and went driving. It had modest power increase - about 50% - they said I'd get about 625 HP and from data from the runs down the long straight at the track, I pretty much confirmed that power level. Never did go to a dyno.

Now, I wasn't happy with one thing - coolant and oil temps ran really hot. I put in a boost gauge and it said boost pressure of 12 psi at full blast. Now, there are three things that matter about a PD blower: RPM + pulley = airflow, airflow + fuel = power, and boost pressure = heat. So, I got ahold of Magnusson, got the SCT calibration file for my kit and picked up my own copy of SCT Advantage and went to town on my calibration. By doing nothing more than adjusting the cam timing at full throttle, I lowered the boost pressure from 12 PSI to 7 PSI. Now, I had the same pulley so I had the same airflow and, based on the numbers from driving the track, I was getting the same power with a lot less boost pressure. It produced a big drop in the intake charge temperature, and I never had a problem with heat after that.

After a year or two of this, I was at the dealer getting some parts and saw a nice new 2014 GT500. Didn't have heat problems with that car either.
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
984
1,275
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20+ Years
Connecticut
same power with a lot less boost pressure
This is something I've gleaned from some of the Engine Masters episodes. Most people measure boost by psi, but the increase in power comes from increasing the mass of the air (number of molecules of oxygen) each time the cylinder fills. In their experiments with boost, cooling the intake charge decreases boost pressure but either keeps power the same or increases it, because the same (PD blower) or more (turbo/centri) oxygen molecules are getting into the cylinder each time.
 
1,246
1,243
In the V6L
This is something I've gleaned from some of the Engine Masters episodes. Most people measure boost by psi, but the increase in power comes from increasing the mass of the air (number of molecules of oxygen) each time the cylinder fills. In their experiments with boost, cooling the intake charge decreases boost pressure but either keeps power the same or increases it, because the same (PD blower) or more (turbo/centri) oxygen molecules are getting into the cylinder each time.
Correct. Power is a function of fuel burned, and fuel burned is a function of air to burn it with. Boost pressure is a measure of inefficiency, not of power. Move more air more efficiently, you get more power with less push-back from the engine you're burning it in.
 
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So cal
So you'd get a naturally aspirated Camaro, but not Mustang?

If you come to a NASA event, @Hye Power runs a boosted s550, but we generally don't do Streets, instead opting for the faster Big Willow, and will be there next weekend.

I do streets sometimes mostly for test n tune. Here's from a 100+ temp day . I have no more heat issues than do n/a cars so not sure why everyone says won't work.
 

PatientZero

@restless_performance
825
865
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10-20 Years
Kansas City, Missouri

I do streets sometimes mostly for test n tune. Here's from a 100+ temp day . I have no more heat issues than do n/a cars so not sure why everyone says won't work.
Your profile says time attack. Are you doing time trials type events or 20-30 min sessions all out? Just curious, it would make a big difference. And what do you mean by no more heat issues than N/A cars? You do have issues or not? I'm definitely not trying to start anything, just please elaborate. What are your coolant and IAC temps at the end of a session?
 
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5
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
SoCal

I do streets sometimes mostly for test n tune. Here's from a 100+ temp day . I have no more heat issues than do n/a cars so not sure why everyone says won't work.
PM me your social media... I think we have more in common than gen3's judging by your forum handle :D

Barev ape! Atchkis es kaklan bidzekin chem lselu...
 
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IMO, going down this rabbit hole is a lot like designing your own suspension. If you look at the history of boosted road course cars, you will see blowers ditched pretty quickly, the they went to turbos.. intercooler turbos etc etc. The whole water meth deal was used in the late 30s, early 40s in fighter planes running full military boost, so there's nothing really new here. But, if you like tilting at windmills, this is really the answer.


The Killer Chiller

 
16
5
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
SoCal
IMO, going down this rabbit hole is a lot like designing your own suspension. If you look at the history of boosted road course cars, you will see blowers ditched pretty quickly, the they went to turbos.. intercooler turbos etc etc. The whole water meth deal was used in the late 30s, early 40s in fighter planes running full military boost, so there's nothing really new here. But, if you like tilting at windmills, this is really the answer.


The Killer Chiller

This is why I’ve chosen to try this out with the centri setup. It’s got the same intercooler setup allowing water/meth to be simple and no damage to the impellers like PD folks worry about.

I’ve spoken to enough folks to give me the green light for madness to begin. I’m starting off with focusing on wheels, tires, areo and an e85 tune. Blower to in the coming months. I’ll likely post a thread with my experience for the next guy that comes here asking the same question.
 
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Autocross
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20+ Years
So Cal
I've got a buddy in the mid-west that has a supercharged Coyote making about 725 HP or something stupid like that. I think he usually runs in relatively cool conditions, but he's able run around for track days. That's kind of the same deal as a GT500.
 

Fabman

Dances with Racecars
6,518
8,154
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W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Pleasanton: 1/2 way between Sonoma and Laguna Seca
I havent seen anyone talk about belts, but... That is always a major issue with centrifugal blowers. Better get a solid setup for that.
You can get cogged belt setups for some of these centri blowers but they are pricey.
A suitable centri setup for coyote/road racing with the right features is well north of 10k.
Not worth the time, heat, weight, complexity and money IMHO. Sure you can get cheaper units, but you will be giving up efficiency in one way or another limiting its usefulness.
It's pretty much turbo or no go. Then still...heat, complexity, weight, cost etc. There is a reason FI on road course cars is not the norm.
Can it be done? Yup. But, is it worth it....?

I'll just finance a new FI setup with all of the money I'm winning.....oh wait, that's right, we don't get paid for winning.

IMHO money is better spent on suspension and seat time....there, I said it.
 
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98
113
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
So cal
IMO, going down this rabbit hole is a lot like designing your own suspension. If you look at the history of boosted road course cars, you will see blowers ditched pretty quickly, the they went to turbos.. intercooler turbos etc etc. The whole water meth deal was used in the late 30s, early 40s in fighter planes running full military boost, so there's nothing really new here. But, if you like tilting at windmills, this is really the answer.


The Killer Chiller

Killer chiller for drag racing maybe, dont see how track racing a killer chiller would work being under wot the ac compressor kicks off? For track racing my take is if you worried about iat then water/meth injection would be the answer.
 
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Killer chiller for drag racing maybe, dont see how track racing a killer chiller would work being under wot the ac compressor kicks off? For track racing my take is if you worried about iat then water/meth injection would be the answer.
True, but the current Gt3 and GT4 cars are running A/C and the compressor is not driven off the engine. that's kind of the problem with running a blower and why nobody really does it, you go down so many rabbit holes until your just get tired of it and it's a chore.
 
I run a Gen3 Whipple with an upgraded heat exchanger on my s550. I keep it around 10psi and it runs on e85. I dont have an issue with IATs. Mishimoto radiator keeps CHTs sub 200. Oil temps are tougher to control. I have an oil cooler but its not big enoigh and I dont have a good place for a larger cooler. I just reinstalled the factory cooler as well so hopefull robbing some cooling from the radiator will help. The Whipple twin screw or Centrifugal will be fine. You just need to install the largest oil cooler ypu can and an aftermarket rad. The e85 lowers IATs entering the cylinders. It will make more power and do it safer than pump gas as well. You can run 1-2# less boost with E85 to hit your power goal vs 93.
 

Wingrider

'11 GT500, 99% Track Car. Lots of mods & I coach
I have run a Whipple upgraded 2011 GT500 at Sonoma and Laguna Seca for years now. All sorts of upgrades to cooling and things to manage the engine. Currently upgrading to a newer rev of the 2.9 along with a ported / modded lower intake. Part of this upgrade includes the VMP intercooler with 1 inch lines in and out of the intercooler. Previous upgrades included modding a VMP heat exchanger to 1 inch ports and all 1 inch lines through a bad ass pump.
 

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