S550 Cheap wheel & tire options (and club/series chat)

[Fabman]

As one of the guilty parties here I am going to suggest we move this discussion to a new thread as we and crapping all over @Black Boss build thread.
@Ludachris I know you can move posts etc. Can we get a new topic on Race clubs/HPDE groups discussion thread or something?
I think the topic is valid but this isn't the place for it.

 

[Ludachris]

As one of the guilty parties here I am going to suggest we move this discussion to a new thread as we and crapping all over @Black Boss build thread.
@Ludachris I know you can move posts etc. Can we get a new topic on Race clubs/HPDE groups discussion thread or something?
I think the topic is valid but this isn't the place for it.

Done.

 

[steveespo]

I may be interpreting this wrong (Pretty sure you mean 1/2 as a run group and 3/4 as a run group), but 1/2 and 3/4 are two different run groups in SoCal and it works pretty well as far as I'm considered. I definitely agree that other regions should be doing that as well if they're not. That seems to be a perfect option to give the racers more track time. We always have a large Toyota group too that needs to run as intro with 1/2 so it can get a bit hectic but overall seems manageable. I really thought that was the standard across all the regions. Most of the HPDE crowd is gone by session 4 anyway. I got Buttonwillow to myself years ago when I was in HPDE 4 and wasn't about to miss that, but others don't seem to feel the same.

Here is our typical schedule.

 

[5.2 liters of democracy]

Here is our typical schedule. View attachment 107033

Wow that's wild to me. What you're saying absolutely works. Basically HPDE1 drivers need an instructor, HPDE2 can go solo but they're both in the same session. HPDE3 drivers need to give a point-by for anyone to pass them, HPDE4 drivers do not need a point-by to pass other HPDE4 drivers, but do need a point-by to pass HPDE3 drivers. Works great as far as I'm concerned. That would free up so much time...

 

[blacksheep-1]

Ok, so to get back to my original intent, finally. Here's the point, take your local short track, class economy mod. These cars use crown vic front half frames and fabbed rears, rivet on body panels. Car has to use vic brakes an fabbed upper control arms. Anyone finishing in the top 5 can claim another entry engine for $500 bucks, you have to give the other guy your engine. Stock style shocks, again you can claim the set for $300 bucks. Spec tires. These cars are cheap, same rules for dirt or asphalt. They put 20 plus cars on a quarter mile track, butts in the seats and a winners purse of $500/ 450/400/350 etc.

I got into an argument over this with an IMSA team.owner, " you need coil overs, IRS, etc etc" no you don't. You need cars that can be run on the cheap, with simple rules.
So what's the largest day-to-day day expense of a race team? Tires, all day long. Find cheap rubber, means more track time, more entries. It really is that simple. It is why I recomend 18 inch tires, plenty of take off, good variety. 15 inch steelies are indestructible, can be bought for $35 bucks each, bias ply tires make great drivers. It's not written in stone, but there are cheaper ways. The local short track just bought out the Hoosier dealership and are selling tires to competitors at 10% over cost, as long as they run at their track. Everyone wants high tech until a guy comes along that is willing to spend more money, then that goes on to the next guy and the next. It kills the sport. Guy have a shop full of $200K HPDE cars...why? Your not racing anyone.

 

[JAJ]

The last time I had any interaction with a "claimer" series was in 1978. Local track, local club, Datsun 510's. If you won a race, any competitor could claim your car for $2k.

Thing was, it was a great series because the cars were so close that the drivers made the difference. That's what racing's about, isn't it?

 

[steveespo]

Ok, so to get back to my original intent, finally. Here's the point, take your local short track, class economy mod. These cars use crown vic front half frames and fabbed rears, rivet on body panels. Car has to use vic brakes an fabbed upper control arms. Anyone finishing in the top 5 can claim another entry engine for $500 bucks, you have to give the other guy your engine. Stock style shocks, again you can claim the set for $300 bucks. Spec tires. These cars are cheap, same rules for dirt or asphalt. They put 20 plus cars on a quarter mile track, butts in the seats and a winners purse of $500/ 450/400/350 etc.

I got into an argument over this with an IMSA team.owner, " you need coil overs, IRS, etc etc" no you don't. You need cars that can be run on the cheap, with simple rules.
So what's the largest day-to-day day expense of a race team? Tires, all day long. Find cheap rubber, means more track time, more entries. It really is that simple. It is why I recomend 18 inch tires, plenty of take off, good variety. 15 inch steelies are indestructible, can be bought for $35 bucks each, bias ply tires make great drivers. It's not written in stone, but there are cheaper ways. The local short track just bought out the Hoosier dealership and are selling tires to competitors at 10% over cost, as long as they run at their track. Everyone wants high tech until a guy comes along that is willing to spend more money, then that goes on to the next guy and the next. It kills the sport. Guy have a shop full of $200K HPDE cars...why? Your not racing anyone.

Spec tire series are great if tires are affordable and useable for practice at the next weekend. We currently don't really have either in Mustang Cup and barely useable tires for practice in Mustang Challenge. Cost for each slick is no where near affordable at $750+ per. USAC is working on cutting the cost for Cup, but the durability issue will be the same, Challenge is IMSA and at that level economy is not expected. R7s in a 305/35-18 would be the best compromise but that ship sailed 2 and a half years ago.

 

[steveespo]

The last time I had any interaction with a "claimer" series was in 1978. Local track, local club, Datsun 510's. If you won a race, any competitor could claim your car for $2k.

Thing was, it was a great series because the cars were so close that the drivers made the difference. That's what racing's about, isn't it?

Actually I would argue that being able to prepare a car within the rules to allow a chance to have more than one winner at each event, or avoid the end of race calamity finish which then becomes survival is what I like in racing. Cookie cutter cars with the driver as the difference doesn't bring in the fan base. Differentiation and engineering along with driver skill is what I like to see. IMSA has struck a pretty good (not perfect) balance that allows each manufacturer the ability to show their capability along with the drivers. JMHO

 

[blacksheep-1]

When we raced Pirelli and ran the Gt3 Porsche, we'd start off with last races, race tire (ex set 4)
just to shake the car down.
Then we'd run the (4 lap sim qualifiers) from last event for practice. ( EX set 2)
We'd run stickers for practice 2 (set 1)
We'd run a quallie sim at the end of practice 2 (set 2)
Quallie and race #1 set (set 3)
Race #2 (set 4).
Then do it again the next race, we'd make 4 sets last that way.
The problem is with the new IR read on pit row ANY tire going on the car gets counted against your allocation, so you can't do this anymore.

 

[Fabman]

Ok, so to get back to my original intent, finally. Here's the point, take your local short track, class economy mod. These cars use crown vic front half frames and fabbed rears, rivet on body panels. Car has to use vic brakes an fabbed upper control arms. Anyone finishing in the top 5 can claim another entry engine for $500 bucks, you have to give the other guy your engine. Stock style shocks, again you can claim the set for $300 bucks. Spec tires. These cars are cheap, same rules for dirt or asphalt. They put 20 plus cars on a quarter mile track, butts in the seats and a winners purse of $500/ 450/400/350 etc.

I got into an argument over this with an IMSA team.owner, " you need coil overs, IRS, etc etc" no you don't. You need cars that can be run on the cheap, with simple rules.
So what's the largest day-to-day day expense of a race team? Tires, all day long. Find cheap rubber, means more track time, more entries. It really is that simple. It is why I recomend 18 inch tires, plenty of take off, good variety. 15 inch steelies are indestructible, can be bought for $35 bucks each, bias ply tires make great drivers. It's not written in stone, but there are cheaper ways. The local short track just bought out the Hoosier dealership and are selling tires to competitors at 10% over cost, as long as they run at their track. Everyone wants high tech until a guy comes along that is willing to spend more money, then that goes on to the next guy and the next. It kills the sport. Guy have a shop full of $200K HPDE cars...why? Your not racing anyone.

When I started oval track back in '82 (shortly after Christ was born) We had an entry level class called "Bombers".
You took a full size American sedan like a Chevelle or Pontiac or Ford etc. knocked out all the glass and welded the doors shut, welded the spiders, removed the burnable's, removed the gas tank, substituted with a jerry can with a fitting welded in it. (standing up in the package tray so it couldn't get hit) A simple roll cage that could not extend past the drivers compartment, a lap belt and stock seat belts crossed to form an X across your chest.
No race parts...at all. Just whatever you could find in a junk yard. Stock motors with a vacuum secondary Holley on a stock manifold. No popup pistons, no cams no porting, no headers.
Tires were 15" x 7" Bias ply's from the local tire recapper who used to cap them with sticky tread for 35.00/each. Oh and the most important part...you were required to have a passenger. Yes, a passenger.
So, you had 2 people paying attention on track, 2 people working on the car, 2 people footing the bill, 2 family's in the stands buying beer and hotdogs, 2 family's supporting the track photographer and wearing T shirts for their team. The racing was fast and furious and often comical as 200 cars broke into 6 groups of 35 from A main to sometimes F main. Top 2 finishers in each group would transfer up.
It was like that for decades until a new promoter came in and took the passengers out of the cars and started allowing more and more money to be spent.

Didn't take long to crash the program.




1982....those were the days....no prize money, just trophies, and a ton of fun!








1983
(Nothing says Racing like a 4 wide pass for the lead).
Racing was intense and sometimes at the last minute they would reverse the direction and we'd have to turn to the right just to keep everyone honest.
A Dodge, a Buick and a pair of Chevelles. Every brand was represented at "All American Speedway".







We didn't spend a lot of money, we just built/fixed our own sh!t and got real friendly with the folks at the junk yard.
The lessons I learned in the garage and on the racetrack has supported me my entire life.








The beauty of the program was that the cream would rise to the top and those who could manage moved up to the money classes.
Passengers would eventually build their own cars and that would bring 2 new passengers/family's into the sport...it was a great feeder to support the class and feed the late model class as well.



I wanted to build a late model so bad but had no money for a body so every week for a year I would go into the infield after the races and
scavenge whatever body pieces had been ripped from other cars and left for dead.
I ended up with a half aluminum/half fiberglass Firebird with a Camaro nose and a Corvette roof found with the windshield still attached.
I cut the hood from the side of a Semi tractor/trailer that was lying in the scrapyard. I hand built the frame and everything else....and it worked.

Pretty soon I was building tons of cars, which I rolled into a business and have been making a living at it ever since.

Now you know how I got the name FABMAN.





There's a lesson in here somewhere....

 

[JDee]

The great old days of stock car racing. When I was a kid we had 2 paved and 2 dirt short tracks within an hour of home. There is only 1 left. Kinda sad.
Kids just don't seem interested in cars now.

 

[Fabman]

The great old days of stock car racing. When I was a kid we had 2 paved and 2 dirt short tracks within an hour of home. There is only 1 left. Kinda sad.
Kids just don't seem interested in cars now.

One of the guys I used to sponsor has since taken over the track and its been super successful.

All American Speedway | Roseville, CA

Sacramento's NASCAR Home Track

www.allamericanspeedway.com

He's also become a championship winning Nascar truck and car owner bringing today's youth into the sport. He's done very well for himself.

Roseville & Antelope Auto Repair - Bill McAnally Racing Napa AutoCare

BMR NAPA AutoCare is a quality independent repair business that has a great community reputation, has integrity, qualifications and expertise to professionally take care of all your vehicle needs.

www.bmrnapa.com

Mike Naake the road racing shock guru also cut his teeth on track with us....(he was a year or 2 behind me).
Lots of folks came from that track and went pro....in one way or another.

Naake Motorsports – Official Website of Naake Motorsports

naakemotorsports.com

Racing is good preparation for Life.

 

[JDee]

Racing is good preparation for Life.

Amen brother, so true!

 

[302BOB]

Racing is good preparation for Life.

The reverse is also true if you think about it..........................

 

[Cal]

When I started oval track back in '82 (shortly after Christ was born) We had an entry level class called "Bombers".
You took a full size American sedan like a Chevelle or Pontiac or Ford etc. knocked out all the glass and welded the doors shut, welded the spiders, removed the burnable's, removed the gas tank, substituted with a jerry can with a fitting welded in it. (standing up in the package tray so it couldn't get hit) A simple roll cage that could not extend past the drivers compartment, a lap belt and stock seat belts crossed to form an X across your chest.
No race parts...at all. Just whatever you could find in a junk yard. Stock motors with a vacuum secondary Holley on a stock manifold. No popup pistons, no cams no porting, no headers.
Tires were 15" x 7" Bias ply's from the local tire recapper who used to cap them with sticky tread for 35.00/each. Oh and the most important part...you were required to have a passenger. Yes, a passenger.
So, you had 2 people paying attention on track, 2 people working on the car, 2 people footing the bill, 2 family's in the stands buying beer and hotdogs, 2 family's supporting the track photographer and wearing T shirts for their team. The racing was fast and furious and often comical as 200 cars broke into 6 groups of 35 from A main to sometimes F main. Top 2 finishers in each group would transfer up.
It was like that for decades until a new promoter came in and took the passengers out of the cars and started allowing more and more money to be spent.

Didn't take long to crash the program.




1982....those were the days....no prize money, just trophies, and a ton of fun!

View attachment 107079






1983
(Nothing says Racing like a 4 wide pass for the lead).
Racing was intense and sometimes at the last minute they would reverse the direction and we'd have to turn to the right just to keep everyone honest.
A Dodge, a Buick and a pair of Chevelles. Every brand was represented at "All American Speedway".

View attachment 107080





We didn't spend a lot of money, we just built/fixed our own sh!t and got real friendly with the folks at the junk yard.
The lessons I learned in the garage and on the racetrack has supported me my entire life.

View attachment 107082






The beauty of the program was that the cream would rise to the top and those who could manage moved up to the money classes.
Passengers would eventually build their own cars and that would bring 2 new passengers/family's into the sport...it was a great feeder to support the class and feed the late model class as well.



I wanted to build a late model so bad but had no money for a body so every week for a year I would go into the infield after the races and
scavenge whatever body pieces had been ripped from other cars and left for dead.
I ended up with a half aluminum/half fiberglass Firebird with a Camaro nose and a Corvette roof found with the windshield still attached.
I cut the hood from the side of a Semi tractor/trailer that was lying in the scrapyard. I hand built the frame and everything else....and it worked.

Pretty soon I was building tons of cars, which I rolled into a business and have been making a living at it ever since.

Now you know how I got the name FABMAN.

View attachment 107081



There's a lesson in here somewhere....

Thanks for sharing this, takes me back to some great memories. Speaking of scrounging for parts, my dad owned a shop and he nicknamed me and a buddy of mine “spot and steal”. Back in the days when knowing what cast numbers to look for in the scrap pile.

 

[Fabman]

Thanks for sharing this, takes me back to some great memories. Speaking of scrounging for parts, my dad owned a shop and he nicknamed me and a buddy of mine “spot and steal”. Back in the days when knowing what cast numbers to look for in the scrap pile.

Oh I could talk for hours on the creative ways I built things.
I never ever cheated, but lets just say that whatever I was doing this year was ruled illegal the following year.
You could say I was the Smokey Yunick of the Sacramento area. lol.

Which led me into a life long career in research and development.


Lessons learned.....lessons applied.
Once you figure out that a bleach filtering manifold is really just a dry sump tank you are on your way to industrial stardom.
Its all just physics. That's it.

 

[Cal]

Haha! Indeed! Amazing what could be done with a little creativity. One night we got protested and tech tore down the motor and I’ll never forget the look on everyone’s face when he looked up from straddling the motor with the hood off and the pits were deathly silent and he said with great anticipation from the crowd “looks like a wore out 350 to me” and he walked off…so did our competition, lol!

 

[Fabman]

Haha! Indeed! Amazing what could be done with a little creativity. One night we got protested and tech tore down the motor and I’ll never forget the look on everyone’s face when he looked up from straddling the motor with the hood off and the pits were deathly silent and he said with great anticipation from the crowd “looks like a wore out 350 to me” and he walked off…so did our competition, lol!

I love it....!
Now don't get me started...

 

[67GTA]

One of the guys I used to sponsor has since taken over the track and its been super successful.

All American Speedway | Roseville, CA

Sacramento's NASCAR Home Track

www.allamericanspeedway.com

He's also become a championship winning Nascar truck and car owner bringing today's youth into the sport. He's done very well for himself.

Roseville & Antelope Auto Repair - Bill McAnally Racing Napa AutoCare

BMR NAPA AutoCare is a quality independent repair business that has a great community reputation, has integrity, qualifications and expertise to professionally take care of all your vehicle needs.

www.bmrnapa.com

Mike Naake the road racing shock guru also cut his teeth on track with us....(he was a year or 2 behind me).
Lots of folks came from that track and went pro....in one way or another.

Naake Motorsports – Official Website of Naake Motorsports

naakemotorsports.com

Racing is good preparation for Life.

I should have realized a long time ago that you and Bill McAnally likely go back a ways. Bill is a great friend and long time brand ambassador for NAPA. Nobody works harder to support their passion then Bill.

 

[CobaltFilly]

I feel like the young whippersnapper on the block listening to the coolest stories grandpas ever told. I am so glad to be on here and learn this history from you guys.

Being the resident 24 year old (am I the youngest on here?) turning on 25, I want to make something myself one day that can turn into something I love...I wish I lived back then, maybe I would fit in more.

My generation is long gone down the wrong paths...