Stock vs coilovers...worth how much time on a track?

[DD GT3 RD]

Trying to get an idea of how much lap time coilovers save. Say you have a stock car on decent tires(rs3/nt01 etc) and the same car and tires with a good set of coilovers (KWv3/jrz rs1 etc).

Maybe on a 2 minute course? Say like buttonwillow or even big willow as these are the tracks I run the most.

 

[PeteInCT]

It really depends on too many factors, including driving skill. On tracks that have high speed turtles (i.e. Watkins Glen and the infamous "bus stop" for us eastern guys) the suspension totally dictates how much you need to brake at the end of a long straight and your speed through those chicanes that follow. Safe to say, installing an excellent set of dampers will be very noticeable. If you're going top shelf with something like an Ohlins setup - is it worth it? Is a Picasso worth $25,000,000 ? Depends on who's looking at it.

 

[cloud9]

Like Pete mentioned there are a lot of variables. Nearest I could tell I gained maybe 1-1.5 seconds going from an FRPP handling pack to a full Griggs setup with coilovers torque aem and Watts link. This was on courses of 2.3 miles in the mid 1:40s and 3.1 miles in the mid 1:50s.

That's spending about $5k installed and makes it a lot less enjoyable on the street.

 

[PeteInCT]

I can fix that. Stop DD ! ;D

 

[Sesshomurai]

I've been researching a coilover purchase for quite some time. I'm having personal email conversations with multiple vendors on their systems (Cortex, Kenny Brown, etc). A good coil-over system will have "night and day" differences from stock. As others have mentioned, driving skill plays the ultimate role, but coilovers can "allow" a decent 10%+ improvement on laps, is my best guestimate. It's significant and will also depend on how many turns a track has as you will gain time on these turns compared to stock.

 

[PeteInCT]

I just wrote a long reply and the dang thing was lost..

Here's the synopsis. 10% is a gross exaggeration IMO. A good lap at Watkins Glen is 2:15 or so. No suspoension system I know of is going to drop 13.5 seconds off a lap, even if it includes a blower and +150hp. IMO...

LBP (Lee) here on the forum has a Cortex system. Maybe he will chime in here...

 

[Sesshomurai]

I just wrote a long reply and the dang thing was lost..

Here's the synopsis. 10% is a gross exaggeration IMO. A good lap at Watkins Glen is 2:15 or so. No suspoension system I know of is going to drop 13.5 seconds off a lap, even if it includes a blower and +150hp. IMO...

LBP (Lee) here on the forum has a Cortex system. Maybe he will chime in here...

Yeah, that might be much now that you mention it. Sorry for being gross! lol
Its just the remarks I get are so positive 1 or 2 seconds doesn't seem nearly enough to back the feedback I hear. I'll just say "It's a significant improvement". I'll post my time improvements after I get a set though.

 

[Zquez]

Vorshlag bought a 2013 GT and took it to the track on stock suspension with their CC plates, 18X10 D force wheels and 295 Nitto NT-05 tires. They then put on some AST 4200 coilovers and took it the same track with nothing else changed. They dropped FOUR seconds.

Coilovers do one thing for you on the track. They allow you to run higher spring rates. In a steady state turn, meaning no bumps, springs are what maintains your grip. A coilover has the valving to allow you to run higher spring rates. With our heavy cars, the more rate the better, but even compromising the kind of rate you could run by wanting to keep the car nice on the street you will be able to run more than you could dream of running on the stock suspension or any of the aftermarket struts. Vorshlag runs 450/175 on their daily driver/track car. I also run this spring rate, although I haven't gotten to take it to the track yet (I just put them on two days ago). Coilovers would be a nice addition to your suspension set up and one other thing often overlooked is that they also allow you to corner balance so that you take to the track with the most neutral car possible.

 

[PeteInCT]

+1. 4 seconds , based on what they had vs. what they went to, seems logical . For me with my current setup, it may be 2 seconds...

 

[Zquez]

Here's a link to the article Terry Fair wrote about their experience. Pretty good info.



http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92238&page=6

 

[cloud9]

Vorshlag bought a 2013 GT and took it to the track on stock suspension with their CC plates, 18X10 D force wheels and 295 Nitto NT-05 tires. They then put on some AST 4200 coilovers and took it the same track with nothing else changed. They dropped FOUR seconds.

Coilovers do one thing for you on the track. They allow you to run higher spring rates. In a steady state turn, meaning no bumps, springs are what maintains your grip. A coilover has the valving to allow you to run higher spring rates. With our heavy cars, the more rate the better, but even compromising the kind of rate you could run by wanting to keep the car nice on the street you will be able to run more than you could dream of running on the stock suspension or any of the aftermarket struts. Vorshlag runs 450/175 on their daily driver/track car. I also run this spring rate, although I haven't gotten to take it to the track yet (I just put them on two days ago). Coilovers would be a nice addition to your suspension set up and one other thing often overlooked is that they also allow you to corner balance so that you take to the track with the most neutral car possible.

While all the manufacturers are going to sell the greatest possible gains (hey they make a living moving product), I could see those type of gains. In my personal example above on a 4,000 lb car, I went from the FRPP handling (shock/strut setup) to a Griggs coilover setup. I gained roughly 1.5-2 seconds with the FRPP kit over stock, then another 1-1.5 seconds with the full coilover setup.

If anyone's pitching a 10% gain in lap times on any mod they're selling snake oil. You're talking the difference between a Viper ACRX and a Miata in that case.

 

[PeteInCT]

I guess you haven't see a supercharged Miata yet ;D

 

[Sesshomurai]

I guess you haven't see a supercharged Miata yet ;D

Ive seen one from behind... :'(

 

[Jimmy Pribble]

Trying to get an idea of how much lap time coilovers save.

Not as much as the difference that driver skill can make. I always ask myself something like this - could I beat Hans Stuck if he were in a stock Boss and I were in a Boss + coilovers? No? Then I better spend my money on track time. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm going to put some kind of suspension on my car, because weeble-wobbling around the track is just frustrating, but I'm tempering my upgrade choices with what I said before. Also, for some people (not me) money is not really a problem, so more power to them.

Maybe a better answer to your question is to clear-up why coilovers are better for a race car. It doesn't have all that much to do with outright performance at any given track. How is a coilover setup different than standard, if the standard setup duplicated the effective spring rates and dampers? The reason for a coilover setup is for a) corner-balancing and b) the ability to easily and cheaply adjust spring rates for any given track. For a standard setup, how many spring sets does Ford Racing make for the Mustang? Three? But once you go to a coilover, you can have any spring rate you want, front and back, for $50 a spring new. Since coilover springs are of just a couple of standard diameters, you can buy them used for dirt cheap all day long.

My main point is that there are very good reasons to go with a coilover, but an absolute advantage in lap times vs. a standard suspension upgrade is probably not one of them. IMO.

 

[PeteInCT]

Very well put sir!

 

[Zquez]

Agreed. I've been running on D-specs and lowering springs for the past 3 years, and they served me well. Seat time and tires is where you're gonna see the most improvement. When I get back from VIR in March, I'll let you know if I feel like they were worth the money.

 

[cloud9]

Great answer Jimmy. Frankly that's why I went with the FRPP setup this time. It gets rid of the weeble wobble, improves the car's capabilities, keeps it streetable and leaves me with more money for track time.

 

[PeteInCT]

I hope "The (real) Boss" doesn't see those last for words.... ;D

 

[Sesshomurai]

Not as much as the difference that driver skill can make. I always ask myself something like this - could I beat Hans Stuck if he were in a stock Boss and I were in a Boss + coilovers? No? Then I better spend my money on track time. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm going to put some kind of suspension on my car, because weeble-wobbling around the track is just frustrating, but I'm tempering my upgrade choices with what I said before. Also, for some people (not me) money is not really a problem, so more power to them.

Maybe a better answer to your question is to clear-up why coilovers are better for a race car. It doesn't have all that much to do with outright performance at any given track. How is a coilover setup different than standard, if the standard setup duplicated the effective spring rates and dampers?

Actually, it does. I'm talking to Ken Brown about his JRZ coilovers and as part of their service offering they will provide specific tunings for specific tracks. Some tracks are right turn, some left, some with more turns than others, etc. Tunable suspension is very important to winning races and are shown to do just that.

I will have my coilovers tuned per track. However, that's more for winning races than just personal lapping. So if lap times are important, and perhaps winning races with better times, having the proper rig is part-and-parcel to doing that. No question!

 

[DD GT3 RD]

I think I have the car pretty maxed out on the stock suspension. I've posted some of the lap times I've been getting and I don't think the car has much left in it. Also it does have body roll and could use either coilovers or stiffer springs if that's an option I just put stiffer springs on the stock shock but I don't think the stock shock is good enough but I'm not a mechanic.

I drove my buddy's Evo on ohlins and the car was just so flat and quick in direction changes it was unbelievable. I know he runs very high spring rates and I know the stock rates are mayb 200lbs in our car. I'm running the FR P springs but the car really needs more for the track.