UMC change of ownership

[Adam Ginsberg]

As someone who has raced and tracked cars for 2+ decades, the comments of "can't run a fast car there", "the track is too fast", "the track is too dangerous", are, quite simply, crap. LSIR is not for the those that leave their cahones at home. Same with RoadATL, or Barber, or Mid-O, or Watkins Glen, or, or, or.....every single race track is inherently dangerous because.....it's a race track.

I was a Race Director at OIR for the 2025 NASA Champs and managed to get a few laps around the track. There were many VERY fast cars there, some in my run group. Yes, there are several unforgiving places. Just like MANY other race tracks.

If you don't want to potentially damage your car, don't take it to the track.

 

[TeeLew]

As someone who has raced and tracked cars for 2+ decades, the comments of "can't run a fast car there", "the track is too fast", "the track is too dangerous", are, quite simply, crap. LSIR is not for the those that leave their cahones at home. Same with RoadATL, or Barber, or Mid-O, or Watkins Glen, or, or, or.....every single race track is inherently dangerous because.....it's a race track.

I was a Race Director at OIR for the 2025 NASA Champs and managed to get a few laps around the track. There were many VERY fast cars there, some in my run group. Yes, there are several unforgiving places. Just like MANY other race tracks.

If you don't want to potentially damage your car, don't take it to the track.

Take it easy, Francis. You're not more brave than pro teams and drivers. You have much lower consequences.

No one has a problem with running Barber. There's great run-off.
Mid-O is a slow track. I don't now why you even mentioned it.
Watkins is only sketchy in the wet.
RAtl definitely gets yout attention at night, but it's not that big of a deal during the day. More importantly, it's a track that correlates well with several other tracks. You can actually learn things there.

Big Willow doesn't relate to any other track in the country and the surface has sucked for the last 20 years. What are you supposed to learn there? Turn 2 is kinda-sorta related to the carousels at RAm or Watkins, but it's going uphill and those other 2 go downhill. They don't act the same. Nothing else at Big Willow is applicable. The track is surrounded by 6" boulders. Even a minor off can easily tub the car. That doesn't end a racing season. You fix it. What it does do is cause all sorts of logistical problems and potentially hurt race performance by going to the next race with an untested package. Budgets are tight enough without making stupid decisions that make it worse. The last time I was there was with a Toyota Atlantic in 2001. We were flat from T5 to T1. We didn't race anything even remotely close to that. Once the lad was willing to keep his foot planted was mostly wasted test time.

Buttonwillow is a great test track which correlates to tracks all over the country with 1/10th the car risk of Big Willow. It's not a tough choice.

Whatever you think is fast...if it was at a NASA weekend, it's not. There's a reason why the SRO did one test at Ozark and pulled out. There's a reason why every other pro series has avoided the place. I'm sure it's a hoot to drive, but it's not a place where truly fast cars are going to play nice. It's not an issue of bravery, but intelligence.

 

[Adam Ginsberg]

I'm not quite sure why you'd say I have "much lower consequences", given you know little to nothing about my personal situation. If I wreck my car, it's 100% on me. No one is paying my bills.

I raced and TT'd BMP. Both times I went, cars were written off. There are SOME run off areas. There are other locations with minimal run off area - exit of 4, when done improperly, will send you into a wall, quick. Exit of 13, when done wrong, will put you into a wall. Those are the two main areas I saw cars destroyed.

I mentioned Mid-O because I've raced it, twice, and seen cars written off there, like Thunder Valley, or the back stretch. I don't think it's a slow track.

It's all good. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

I definitely agree with Adam about Mid Ohio since I have run there twice also. In fact one time was 20+ years ago and I was going over 145 mph in a Viper on the back straight. Turn 1 is wicked fast and known for folks flying off and a run through Thunder Valley is damn quick with no real room for error. By the way I have run Road America, Road Atlanta, VIR and around 20 other tracks so fairly well versed on what is fast and it does not always equate to a straight line. I would have to jump in and question comments on Watkins Glen ---- I have plenty of track rat friends and Pros who would question your comment that it is easy, safe and not fast!

Back to your regularly scheduled programming as I am just glad there are still so many tracks we can play on.

 

[TeeLew]

I'm not quite sure why you'd say I have "much lower consequences", given you know little to nothing about my personal situation. If I wreck my car, it's 100% on me. No one is paying my bills.

If a team doesn't make the next race because they tested someplace stupid and wrote the car off, they can lose the whole program. Ya, you have to pay for your car, but you're not using that car to pay your mortgage or the salaries of the 10 guys working for you, are you? For you, it's money wasted and an inconveniece. For a race team, it can mean closing the doors and losing everything.

For the most part, race teams run on shoe-string budgets.

 

[TeeLew]

I definitely agree with Adam about Mid Ohio ..... I would have to jump in and question comments on Watkins Glen ---- I have plenty of track rat friends and Pros who would question your comment that it is easy, safe and not fast!


Back to your regularly scheduled programming as I am just glad there are still so many tracks we can play on.

Cards on the table. I've pro raced for 30 years and been to more tracks than I can remember, domestically and abroad. Believe me or don't, it really doesn't matter either way. My opinions are just that, but they are not uninformed.

Mid-O is slow enough that it's tough to cool the engine/brakes. T1 is about 105-115 mph in a 'fast' car. That's a good bit off of speeds at many other corners on many other tracks. The whole back section is 2nd-3rd gear. Define 'fast' any way you want. This is objectively not a 'fast' track.

Watkins is fast, but all of the fast corners are banked, the track is smooth and it has great grip. The only bumpy/low grip corner is T9 and it's the slowest on the track. Yes, crashes happen everywhere, but Watkins generally has good run-off and a lot of track grip. I never claimed Watkins was slow, safe or easy. If you're going to argue, then argue against the things I actually said. It's one of the fastest on the calendar. I said it was only sketchy in the wet. The rivers that run off the hills and across the track can mean going from a normal wet track to an instant hydroplane. This is a reality and why I said what I said.

You want fast and sketchy, IMO? Mosport and St. Jovite are at the top of my list in North America. Big Willow is fast, but I wouldn't call it sketchy. What I will say about it is that any little off can mean destroying the car because of all the big rocks off track. If it was just dirt, then no problem. That's not the case. When you couple that with the fact that it isn't like any track in any pro series, it's pretty easy to understand why no one tests there.

On the bright side, I've heard over the last couple days that the people who now own Utah actually like racing. There may be a silver lining.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Like Adam I guess we can just agree to disagree and with my 45 years of playing on asphalt in various machines and your 30 years of racing it appears we simply don't have the same definition of fast - no biggie. Have a fun day and party well watching the Super Bowl.

 

[TeeLew]

Fine, but have we established why some tracks, like Big Willow and Ozarks, are actively avoided?

 

[ajaquilante]

Fine, but have we established why some tracks, like Big Willow and Ozarks, are actively avoided?

My take: Minor incidents that have major consequences are what I'd say cause tracks to get bad reputations. If a minor two-wheels off will do some big damage, or put you on your roof, no thanks. If you can find a tree or a rock that creates un-predictable impacts, no thanks.

I've watched video of Ozarks, read praise, and I say, sure I'd drive it by myself. With all the twists, curves, blind hills, no thanks though in a racing or HPDE situation. Someone needed to smack the designer with a straight-ruler and create some normal straightaways. People compare it to the N-Ring, well look at the standards needed to race there now. Ozarks is not a race track, its a vehicle development track. 40-50 years ago when we didn't know any better it would be looked at as normal, however in today's view we know better. Another factor I see is the overall drop in driving ability we see across all areas of street/HPDE/racing driving.

I've never driven Willow, I've seen plenty of videos of what seem like slow, minor crashes that resulted in junk cars because of what you hit isn't consistent. Again in the 60's we didn't know better, but now we do. Many tracks have evolved. Road America, Watkins, Road Atlanta, etc are all fast tracks with places you can do some serious damage, but at least you know what you'll hit, you see it from the drivers seat, you accept those consequences or modify your speed. Some tracks like VIR you see big grassy fields, but sometimes they do more damage than a tire wall because they are rutted, or undulating

 

[TeeLew]

Exactly.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Another factor I see is the overall drop in driving ability we see across all areas of street/HPDE/racing driving.

I feel attacked.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

I can't imagine having a minor disagreement with Andrew A. but I sure don't see an overall drop of driving ability across all areas of car competition ( definitely not in Autocrossing with SCCA ). I think the concentration of drivers is just spread out much, much farther with folks going to a variety of track events. 20 years ago you had SCCA, NASA, PCA and not much more and today there are so many groups it is hard to list. I find Instructing that driving ability is not much different than it was when I started over four decades ago, though more drivers need driving a manual fine tuned. Ironically those drivers seem more open to learning and not trying to demonstrate their testosterone levels. All that said the concentration of highly skilled drivers is much more spread out than in decades past , so I can see how a Track Legend like Andrew feels the skill is not the same - he likely has fewer drivers he competes against all the time. I know a slug of SCCA folks wandered over to NASA 10-15 years ago when the SCCA Regional Races seemed to be supplemented by National Style events. This made driving to events a much bigger deal concerning time , cost and more. Just my opinion, but I find many drivers are more open to Instruction than years ago and with Autocrossing the talent today is insane.

 

[TeeLew]

I don't know that I'd blame the crashes we see on a wholesale lack of driving skill as much as I do on a massive step up on the performance envelope of cars over the last 15 years.

People used to take a lot of relatively slow cars to the track. You'd find alot of VW Rabbits, Dodge Neons, Toyota MR2s or maybe odd 914/Lotus. Tires were relatively narrow and power was relatively low. A front drive car with narrow tires and 120 Hp was about the right car for a track introduction. A Mustang, Camaro, Corvette or 911 might have 250 Hp and this would be a more advanced car. These cars would encourage reasonable driving habits and the performance limits were low enough that they were relatively easily accessable and controllable. That's just no longer the case.

A base Mustang or Camaro is 450 Hp and most are beefed up from that. A Porsche or Corvette might be more like 700. Tires hover in the range of 300mm widths and even a 200tw tire has pretty good grip. Brakes are massive. The upper limits of these cars are impressive, but when someone loses control, they're going bloody fast. They don't just take a little trip through the dirt; they make it to the wall.

There also seems to be video-game aspect of it to the very green drivers. I've seen guys write cars off in their first laps with no one else around. They seem to drive as if there's a 'reset' button. There's not. iRacing can be a great tool if used correctly, but if you try to drive a real car in the same fashion as if you're playing a video game, you'll generally end up with the same result. It always seems to shock people.

I have guys practice on iRacing to learn tracks and how to avoid contact. Here's the game: Put as many Ai cars on the track as possible (~40) and start 3/4 of the way back in the field. Your goal is to get as far through pack as possible in 10 laps without ever going off or touching any other car. You'll never win the race if you drive like this, but you will learn to avoid putting yourself in bad spots and over-driving. Most people refuse to do this because they want to run faster lap times and 'win' the race.

 

[Fabman]

Something I've noticed:
I have given quite a few on track rides in the mustang over the years and even when it was at 700 rwhp ripping down the Thunderhill front stretch @145 mph my grandson said "I thought it would be faster than that..."
My sons stepson recently rode with me at Sonoma and said basically the same thing, even though we had just passed literally every car on track.
The adults that have ridden with me all have the opposite reaction, they can't believe the car sticks in corners where they were sure we were gonna die.
I think video games has a lot to do with this. The unrealistic expectations can not be fulfilled. Also, a race track is typically wide with run off and the curves are meant to be taken fast. There's no opposing traffic and no parked cars or street lights.
Todays performance focused cars handle well and tires grip compared to a young person driving over the limit on a city street in a Yugo. So, the perception is different. What they see as "fast" is at the edge of control in a hazardous environment. The danger is exhilarating.
When they get into a well prepared car with a smooth driver the perception is that they are going slow, even though it may be going way faster than they think. When they get to the track in a car of their own they are looking for that exhilarating feeling of being out of control and that's when they get into trouble. Some people learn from this...other don't. Some tracks are more forgiving, others, not so much.

While only tangently relevant, when I was racing oval track literally every year on opening day, someone would pull onto the track at the first practice session, foot to the floor and straight into the turn one wall. Every. Damn. Year.
Personally I think growing up riding dirt bikes and home made go carts etc. taught us the consequences of driving over the limit and trusting your ride that you cobbled together with left over parts from moms blender might possibly kill us instilled a healthy respect for the machines and sport. Oval track taught me how to get through heavy traffic with the least amount of drama. It also taught me to be a skilled fabricator. lol. #Crashes happen.
I don't think enough of today's young drivers have had the benefit of waking up in the thistle's with their helmet on backwards and their bike on top of them burning a hole in their leg, and it shows.

But that's my opinion, and nobody asked for it.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Good observations on outright speed Fab and Tee, because folks realize after they have been tracking for awhile the real fun on a road course is the turns. I know folks who rode with me who were not even aware of the speed going down the straight, yet exiting a turn at 115 mph had their eyes hitting the bulge meter , ha.

 

[TeeLew]

What they see as "fast" is at the edge of control in a hazardous environment. The danger is exhilarating.

Personally I think growing up riding dirt bikes and home made go carts etc. taught us the consequences of driving over the limit and trusting your ride that you cobbled together with left over parts from moms blender might possibly kill us instilled a healthy respect for the machines and sport. Oval track taught me how to get through heavy traffic with the least amount of drama. It also taught me to be a skilled fabricator. lol. #Crashes happen.
I don't think enough of today's young drivers have had the benefit of waking up in the thistle's with their helmet on backwards and their bike on top of them burning a hole in their leg, and it shows.

But that's my opinion, and nobody asked for it.

Interesting view. I think you're right. The drift scene gives the sensation of 'fast and dangerous', even though they're really not going all that fast. If a car is being driven very well, it doesn't look all that spectacular. It takes a well-trained eye to appreciate the difference between someone truly at the limit or driving 2 seconds off-pace.

I wasn't able to have dirt bike...my dad lost a leg racing TT bikes, which put a damper on things. As a kid, though, I did all sorts of stupid stuff on my BMX bike. I jumped every stump and ramp I could find and ate siht plenty of times. It absolutely gives you a respect for getting it wrong. Any sort of karting really drives the point home.

Oval racing is *the best* way to learn how to navigate traffic. So much of it is learning how to understand the (nonverbal) communication between cars/drivers. People will tell you what they're going to do (on track) if you're tuned into listening to them.

Watching someone take the car they drove to the track and fire it off in their first 2 minutes on track is crazy. They'd never try to do what they just did on the street, but they act like being on a racetrack changes physics. I tell new drivers to drive at the same basic pace you would if you were going fast on a highway on/off ramp. Just the fact that you're approaching the corners at real speed and with hard braking instead of entering at 70-ish mph is a big deal.

 

[TeeLew]

the real fun on a road course is the turns. I know folks who rode with me who were not even aware of the speed going down the straight, yet exiting a turn at 115 mph had their eyes hitting the bulge meter , ha.

100%

 

[Fabman]

Interesting view. I think you're right. The drift scene gives the sensation of 'fast and dangerous', even though they're really not going all that fast. If a car is being driven very well, it doesn't look all that spectacular. It takes a well-trained eye to appreciate the difference between someone truly at the limit or driving 2 seconds off-pace.

I wasn't able to have dirt bike...my dad lost a leg racing TT bikes, which put a damper on things. As a kid, though, I did all sorts of stupid stuff on my BMX bike. I jumped every stump and ramp I could find and ate siht plenty of times. It absolutely gives you a respect for getting it wrong. Any sort of karting really drives the point home.

Oval racing is *the best* way to learn how to navigate traffic. So much of it is learning how to understand the (nonverbal) communication between cars/drivers. People will tell you what they're going to do (on track) if you're tuned into listening to them.

Watching someone take the car they drove to the track and fire it off in their first 2 minutes on track is crazy. They'd never try to do what they just did on the street, but they act like being on a racetrack changes physics. I tell new drivers to drive at the same basic pace you would if you were going fast on a highway on/off ramp. Just the fact that you're approaching the corners at real speed and with hard braking instead of entering at 70-ish mph is a big deal.

Sorry about your dad, that really sucks. Great first hand example of what can happen when things don't go as expected and the consequences incurred.
Like I often say, speed is relative, a 40 mph corner on track doesn't sound like much but 40 mph in your kitchen is hauling azz.
Being on a race track makes it easy to under estimate speed and the braking needed to maneuver corners and traffic because of its layout as described in my earlier post.
Slow is fast as we all know, and with smoothness comes speed; not the reverse.
I love that you get it about non verbal communication....people think I'm crazy when I start talking about that....but then its; "How the heck to you just blow through traffic like that and never once put a scratch on your car?"
I call it "Auto Body Language," you need to read it. If you look hard enough people will almost always tell you what they are gonna do.....same way a poker player knows when you're bluffing.
Anyway, I think I've sidelined this thread enough....I barely even remember what we were originally talking about....oh yeah, crashing and the best places to do it.
Carry on.

 

[honeybadger]

I'd like to offer a slightly differing opinion - being a spry 35 year old, I grew up in quite a transitionary period. Had tons of realistic video games to play and spent tons of time on SIM-like games crashing and resetting. But there wasn't social media in the earlier days, so I was out jumping bikes, falling off roofs, and doing pretty much anything to go fast (got the permanent neck damage to prove it!).

From what I've seen - its two fold. 1. their reference point for speed are Teslas. regardless of how you feel about EVs - Plaids accelerate fast enough to scramble your brain and pretty much everyone young has experienced. very few ICE cars will give that sense of straight line speed.

Second, most of them have literally zero experience behind the wheel/handlebars doing somethign sketchy on their own. so they haven't had those learning experiences that teach you how close to serious consequences you got. One of my observations giving hot laps to tourists at COTA - the guys almost as sh*t themselves every time. They have a reference point to use and they knew they were out of their comfort zone. But when I'd give their wives/girlfriends rides? they'd giggle like we were on a country road going for a cruise.

IT was amusing to see the husbands tap out and the wives ask for another lap. definitely hurt quite a few egos

 

[Fabman]

Speaking of perception of speed….

567K views · 8.7K reactions | Putting the illusion of speed on full display at Daytona. 🤯 | NASCAR Classics

Putting the illusion of speed on full display at Daytona. 🤯

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