Gen2 - Spun a bearing

[Chrome]

First time poster, long time autocrosser out of Austin TX. I've met a few of you in RL but mostly hang out on that other forum.

Yeah so my 97800 mile Gen2 (2016 GT PP1) is dead. We'll open it up in a few weeks and see exactly what happened, but right now the theory is the rod knock we heard and seized motor were probably from a spun bearing. Not sure if the oil gears failed or what, but I'm expecting to have to rebuild/replace the crank and a rod at least. Lifters have been making noise when the oil got a little old for a while now.

I'd love to rebuilt it a bit stronger and faster. Setup was Gen2 with ported 18 manifold, ported TB, E85, injectors, Steeda closed intake and a tuned RPM bump to 7800 to get a higher autox top speed in 2nd gear. I think it dynod at close to 420 rwhp. Also have GT500 valve covers to help with dumping oil through the drivers PCV side.

Its mostly used as a 2nd gear autocross car and occasional HPDE toy and spends a lot of time riding close to the redline. I'm not entirely settled on staying N/A versus adding a blower on there. I'd be love to get closer to 500hp than to 400, but honestly 600hp sounds about perfect for my needs. The power I had was good, but I want at least a little more. I haven't done headers yet.

1. The recommendations seem to be to start with a Gen3 block and then work with my Gen2 heads and engine control?
2. Gen3 aluminator short block or stock Gen3?
3. Any love for a 5.2 build? (are GT350 heads needed for that?)
4. I'll switch to a better oil pan (GT350 or GT500) with a good pump and gears for sure. I'm assuming the '16 GT steel pan wasn't doing me any favors.
5. Any cams worth the money over my stock Gen2 ones?
6. FP high performance timing chain stuff, I assume is worth it.
7. Any headers good for low end torque? 1 3/4 long tubes?
8. Anything else that should be on my radar for reliability spending time near a ~7800 redline?
9. I also have major frustrations around fuel starvation even when 2/3rds full going left with my aero and sticky tire setup. I guess I should leave that for another thread.

I'll likely do some other things (headers, driveshaft, fresh radiator, oil cooler?, and maybe go down to 3.55 gears) while the motor is out.. I wasn't planning on spending this kind of money on the car, but I do have a little saved up I can throw at it.

 

[JDee]

Don't use the stock oil pans, get a good baffled road racing unit like Moroso makes. It is cheap insurance against blowing up from oil starving a very expensive motor. The stock pans allow enough slosh that pressure drops to zero, especially on linked opposing corners.

 

[Chrome]

Don't use the stock oil pans, get a good baffled road racing unit like Moroso makes. It is cheap insurance against blowing up from oil starving a very expensive motor. The stock pans allow enough slosh that pressure drops to zero, especially on linked opposing corners.

So, like the 20571? That's recommended over the GT500 pan?

OIL PAN, FORD 5.0 COYOTE, ROAD RACE BAFFLED, REAR T-SUMP, STEEL

Fits: Mustang, 2011-Up, Mustang 1994-'10 and other Ford Rear Sump applications with Ford "Coyote" Engines. Oil Pan, Steel, Clear Zinc, Fully Fabricated. Engine Application: Ford 5.0 Modular "Coyote" Engines

www.moroso.com

 

[thelostotter]

So, like the 20571? That's recommended over the GT500 pan?

OIL PAN, FORD 5.0 COYOTE, ROAD RACE BAFFLED, REAR T-SUMP, STEEL

Fits: Mustang, 2011-Up, Mustang 1994-'10 and other Ford Rear Sump applications with Ford "Coyote" Engines. Oil Pan, Steel, Clear Zinc, Fully Fabricated. Engine Application: Ford 5.0 Modular "Coyote" Engines

www.moroso.com

I’m using that Moroso pan and it works well. But if the 500 pan kit existed when I built my motor I would have seriously considered it. I don’t know much about it but the high volume oil pump sounds like a good investment.

I used my existing gen 2 block but I had to block off the oil jets to use Wiseco pistons. A gen 3 block sounds great but I haven’t read up on the durability of the cylinder plating recently.

 

[JDee]

So, like the 20571? That's recommended over the GT500 pan?

OIL PAN, FORD 5.0 COYOTE, ROAD RACE BAFFLED, REAR T-SUMP, STEEL

Fits: Mustang, 2011-Up, Mustang 1994-'10 and other Ford Rear Sump applications with Ford "Coyote" Engines. Oil Pan, Steel, Clear Zinc, Fully Fabricated. Engine Application: Ford 5.0 Modular "Coyote" Engines

www.moroso.com

Yup. I know nothing about the GT500 pan, but the Moroso is a purpose designed road race piece.

 

[67GTA]

So, like the 20571? That's recommended over the GT500 pan?

OIL PAN, FORD 5.0 COYOTE, ROAD RACE BAFFLED, REAR T-SUMP, STEEL

Fits: Mustang, 2011-Up, Mustang 1994-'10 and other Ford Rear Sump applications with Ford "Coyote" Engines. Oil Pan, Steel, Clear Zinc, Fully Fabricated. Engine Application: Ford 5.0 Modular "Coyote" Engines

www.moroso.com

The GT500 pan is baffled and works really well. Bonus is the kit includes the GT500 oil pump that cranks out serious pressure and volume.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Unless you are going to add a blower in the future, then no real reason to choose a Aluminator over a stock gen3 shortblock. Highly recommend the LM intake only cams. AED oil scraper is good to have and yes most decent headers will give you a bump in power in the midrange... Dont like the fancy expensive ones much.. Better off getting cheapo headers and spending some money on the collector. Borla, for example a pretty lousy. No collector of any kind. I bought headers on Ebay for US$250 then added custom collectors... They performed better then US$1500 Kooks!! Hate to say it, but the ebay knock off was better made.

 

[biggsy]

First time poster, long time autocrosser out of Austin TX. I've met a few of you in RL but mostly hang out on that other forum.

Yeah so my 97800 mile Gen2 (2016 GT PP1) is dead. We'll open it up in a few weeks and see exactly what happened, but right now the theory is the rod knock we heard and seized motor were probably from a spun bearing. Not sure if the oil gears failed or what, but I'm expecting to have to rebuild/replace the crank and a rod at least. Lifters have been making noise when the oil got a little old for a while now.

I'd love to rebuilt it a bit stronger and faster. Setup was Gen2 with ported 18 manifold, ported TB, E85, injectors, Steeda closed intake and a tuned RPM bump to 7800 to get a higher autox top speed in 2nd gear. I think it dynod at close to 420 rwhp. Also have GT500 valve covers to help with dumping oil through the drivers PCV side.

Its mostly used as a 2nd gear autocross car and occasional HPDE toy and spends a lot of time riding close to the redline. I'm not entirely settled on staying N/A versus adding a blower on there. I'd be love to get closer to 500hp than to 400, but honestly 600hp sounds about perfect for my needs. The power I had was good, but I want at least a little more. I haven't done headers yet.

1. The recommendations seem to be to start with a Gen3 block and then work with my Gen2 heads and engine control?
2. Gen3 aluminator short block or stock Gen3?
3. Any love for a 5.2 build? (are GT350 heads needed for that?)
4. I'll switch to a better oil pan (GT350 or GT500) with a good pump and gears for sure. I'm assuming the '16 GT steel pan wasn't doing me any favors.
5. Any cams worth the money over my stock Gen2 ones?
6. FP high performance timing chain stuff, I assume is worth it.
7. Any headers good for low end torque? 1 3/4 long tubes?
8. Anything else that should be on my radar for reliability spending time near a ~7800 redline?
9. I also have major frustrations around fuel starvation even when 2/3rds full going left with my aero and sticky tire setup. I guess I should leave that for another thread.

I'll likely do some other things (headers, driveshaft, fresh radiator, oil cooler?, and maybe go down to 3.55 gears) while the motor is out.. I wasn't planning on spending this kind of money on the car, but I do have a little saved up I can throw at it.

You and I are both in the market lol. I saw your post on M6G a couple days ago. This is what I have planned after talking to a few nice folks on here and Shaun at AED.

 

[Chrome]

You and I are both in the market lol. I saw your post on M6G a couple days ago. This is what I have planned after talking to a few nice folks on here and Shaun at AED.
View attachment 94866

Thanks, yeah I have a start at a similar sheet.

I already have some of those parts on my busted Gen2 (cylinder heads, valve cover, ported throttle body), but a few of these were not on my radar.

 

[biggsy]

Thanks, yeah I have a start at a similar sheet.

I already have some of those parts on my busted Gen2 (cylinder heads, valve cover, ported throttle body), but a few of these were not on my radar.

Yea same. Still contemplating if I want everything to be new or swap stuff over

 

[Dave_W]

If you haven't already, read Fabman's build thread. It's long, and he goes through several iterations of engines, but there are some real gems in there. Learn from his experiences.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Am very happy I went with @Fabman 's recipe and went with a Shaun/AED built gen 1/3 hybrid motor . Would also put the oil scraper on the list as a must have along with the other AED goodies. Maybe check those heads out at a shop to see if the are ok? Porting them is always nice,.. But expensive. in one of my busted motors the heads where slightly warped so went with Livernois ported heads instead of trying to fix them.

Perfer the Cobrajet over the GT350 manifold with a big 67mm dual TB. But its not that different in the end.

Be careful with the cheaper throttle bodies. Some tuners will not touch them.

 

[bnight]

You and I are both in the market lol. I saw your post on M6G a couple days ago. This is what I have planned after talking to a few nice folks on here and Shaun at AED.
View attachment 94866

Do you miss a TB / Adapter for that GT350 IM ? Thanks for sharing your build.

 

[bnight]

Unless you are going to add a blower in the future, then no real reason to choose a Aluminator over a stock gen3 shortblock. Highly recommend the LM intake only cams. AED oil scraper is good to have and yes most decent headers will give you a bump in power in the midrange... Dont like the fancy expensive ones much.. Better off getting cheapo headers and spending some money on the collector. Borla, for example a pretty lousy. No collector of any kind. I bought headers on Ebay for US$250 then added custom collectors... They performed better then US$1500 Kooks!! Hate to say it, but the ebay knock off was better made.

Isn't the Aluminator block beneficial for people on Gen 2's to not need a new tune for example if you have a FP tune or something ?

 

[Mad Hatter]

Isn't the Aluminator block beneficial for people on Gen 2's to not need a new tune for example if you have a FP tune or something ?

Not really, same compression ratio in a gen2 or gen2 Aluminator so as far as the tune is concerned, its the same thing. If you go with the the Gen3 you do have the complication of a higher compression ratio which means E85 or race gas for the track. Thats becuase you will not have the extra knock sensor and direct injection of the Gen3

 

[Mad Hatter]

When I was getting my engine built by Shaun at AED. I asked him if I should send a Aluminator shortblock, he said don't bother. His gen3 engines see crazy turbo HP, so if he said dont bother, that was fine with me.

 

[bnight]

Not really, same compression ratio in a gen2 or gen2 Aluminator so as far as the tune is concerned, its the same thing. If you go with the the Gen3 you do have the complication of a higher compression ratio which means E85 or race gas for the track. Thats becuase you will not have the extra knock sensor and direct injection of the Gen3

Yeah my point was if I don't want to play with Tune i should go with Alumniator block 11:1.

If you don't mind the Tune Gen 3 is cheaper and faster because of the 12:1 in N/A form.

 

[stevbd]

Not really, same compression ratio in a gen2 or gen2 Aluminator so as far as the tune is concerned, its the same thing. If you go with the the Gen3 you do have the complication of a higher compression ratio which means E85 or race gas for the track. Thats becuase you will not have the extra knock sensor and direct injection of the Gen3

@Mad Hatter this is very interesting and helpful information, thank you for sharing. Is it not safe to run a 3-2-1 motor on track with pump gas, or is it more a matter of using E85 or race gas to optimize the setup?

 

[Mad Hatter]

Its due to the higher compression of the gen 3 shortblock. If you run gen1 or 2 heads you will have to watch for detonation. So a tune and better gas is a must. 3-2-1 motor??
a complete gen 3 motor would be fine because of the upgraded sensors and injection.

Honestly, every Coyote could do with race gas or E85 at the track. Added insurance. In any case its always a good idea to log your car once in a while to see that everything is in order.

 

[thelostotter]

Yeah my point was if I don't want to play with Tune i should go with Alumniator block 11:1.

If you don't mind the Tune Gen 3 is cheaper and faster because of the 12:1 in N/A form.

I don’t see the value in an Aluminator unless your stock block and crank are trashed. If you have a machine shop you’re comfortable working with you can achieve something at least the same, probably better for less money.

@Mad Hatter this is very interesting and helpful information, thank you for sharing. Is it not safe to run a 3-2-1 motor on track with pump gas, or is it more a matter of using E85 or race gas to optimize the setup?

I rebuilt my engine because of detonation damage from 91 octane. Splashing in a few gallons of good 100 unleaded is good insurance to prevent it but costly for basically 0 performance gain. Better yet use E85 to get a power bump and not worry about detonation at all.

I converted to E85 for the track and it works great for me.