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Alignment spec

I have maximum motorsports cc plate installed
My alignment is

-1.8 camber
Zero toe
Maximum possible caster

I track my car, but occasionaly daily drive it

Alignment sounds good to you? am I missing something?
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
13Boss#3328 said:
I have maximum motorsports cc plate installed
My alignment is

-1.8 camber
Zero toe
Maximum possible caster

I track my car, but occasionaly daily drive it

Alignment sound good to you, am I missing something?

Sounds good to me. Watch both your inside and outside shoulders for wear since it will all depend on how hard you drive your car and the tire pressures you use.
 
The alignment shop did toe in almost 0.2, initially
So i went to test drive it, it felt more stable in a straight line, but I felt as if there is a resistence at the front tires
So I took it back and told me give ZERO toe
Then they started convincing me that neither for dd nor racing a zero toe is good
But I insisted on zero toe

Why do you think they did not like the idea of zero toe?
 

Senderofan

Having more fun than should be allowed..in my Boss
I have zero toe on mine. I'm also running camber at -2.4 degrees and have not seen an unusual wear pattern. And both have been fine for running on the street. The small amount of toe-in that your shop wanted you to get is to help you with initial turn-in...or so I have read. But I think the toe in will cause you to wander on some road surfaces...or so I have read.
 
Senderofan said:
I have zero toe on mine. I'm also running camber at -2.4 degrees and have not seen an unusual wear pattern. And both have been fine for running on the street. The small amount of toe-in that your shop wanted you to get is to help you with initial turn-in...or so I have read. But I think the toe in will cause you to wander on some road surfaces...or so I have read.

Actually, toe in will improve the straight line stability
To turn in sharp, you will need toe out.

Race cars usually have some degree of toe out up front to improve the initial turn in.
The reason most cars come with some toe in from the factory is to make the car more stable in a straight line and decrease the darting that can happen from road imperfection.
 
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13Boss#3328 said:
Actually, toe in will improve the straight line stability
To turn in sharp, you will need toe out.

Race cars usually have some degree of toe out up front to improve the initial turn in.
The reason most cars come with some toe in from the factory is to make the car more stable in a straight line and decrease the darting that can happen from road imperfection.

This.

The 0 toe and 1.8 negative camber alignment is an excellent (albiet stable) setup for higher speed tracks with elevation changes.
All this alignment talk is really track dependent. I know that the numbers posted here would be good for one of my local circuits (Mosport).

Personally, I'm close to these #.s -2.1 camber, 0 toe, 6.9 caster (stock).

I have no desire for toe out at this time, as I find the corner entry ability of this car to be it's strongest trait. It's so incredibly neutral on turn-in that I don't desire any sharper response in this arena. And yet it retains stability in trail braking too. Works for me :)
 
boro92 said:
This.

The 0 toe and 1.8 negative camber alignment is an excellent (albiet stable) setup for higher speed tracks with elevation changes.
All this alignment talk is really track dependent. I know that the numbers posted here would be good for one of my local circuits (Mosport).

Personally, I'm close to these #.s -2.1 camber, 0 toe, 6.9 caster (stock).

I have no desire for toe out at this time, as I find the corner entry ability of this car to be it's strongest trait. It's so incredibly neutral on turn-in that I don't desire any sharper response in this arena. And yet it retains stability in trail braking too. Works for me :)

We know that our craving for more negative camber is to make the front tires as straight as possible while they are turning and this is because of the front suspension setup. Hence will increase the contact patch and traction during cornering, so more front end grip.

Question is, will this make the car more prone to oversteer?

Or, may be not, because our cars have tendency to understeer to start with, so the negative camber will make them more neutral?

Or may be it depends on where in the corner you are, early, mid or exit?
 
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13Boss#3328 said:
We know that our craving for more negative camber is to make the front tires as straight as possible while they are turning and this is because of the front suspension setup. Hence will increase the contact patch and traction during cornering, so more front end grip.

Question is, will this make the car more prone to oversteer?

Or, may be not, because our cars have tendency to understeer to start with, so the negative camber will make them more neutral?

Or may be it depends on where in the corner you are, early, mid or exit?

I did it purposely to address mid corner. There are some corners where understeer rears it's head mid way through.
Yes, you can fight it by trail braking...but there are situations where that is not going to work.

It won't make the car prone to oversteer, but you will find enhanced front end grip in many situations. Just remember that the more steering input you give a car, the less throttle input you should be giving. It'll keep the back end locked in. And as you unwind the steering, you then start to roll into the throttle. Driving a high hp car this way will make your oversteer worries go away (unless you have a very loose setup...then you will be fighting the car no matter what :D).

I'd state that the Boss does have mild understeer in some situations around a tighter course. For the high speed stuff that I go to, actually the handling balance is spot on to me. Would just be nice to increase the cornering limits of the car for tracks like that via doing things like lowering cg, lca relocation etc.

mcmmotorsports: Oh and toe out is to enhance corner entry... Maybe we're already on the same page here. Toe out you can think of as an artificial ackerman effect. So it will enhance how responsive the car is to the initial turning of the steering wheel. Corner entry will be improved.

You have 2 wheels in front with a static distance from each other. So as you can imagine, the inside wheel is going to be turning a sharper radius than the outside wheel. Toe out alters this and ensures that the insight wheel is pointed more sharply into a corner than the outside wheel is...making the wheels carve their own distinct sized "corners". This reduces their fighting each other and makes the car easier to turn in.

I don't really see how that aids in stability (if anything, it makes the car more darty). Thus you find many OE spec alignments to have lots of toe both front and rear (BMW is a good example of this).
 

steveespo

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boro92 said:
I did it purposely to address mid corner. There are some corners where understeer rears it's head mid way through.
Yes, you can fight it by trail braking...but there are situations where that is not going to work.

It won't make the car prone to oversteer, but you will find enhanced front end grip in many situations. Just remember that the more steering input you give a car, the less throttle input you should be giving. It'll keep the back end locked in. And as you unwind the steering, you then start to roll into the throttle. Driving a high hp car this way will make your oversteer worries go away (unless you have a very loose setup...then you will be fighting the car no matter what :D).

I'd state that the Boss does have mild understeer in some situations around a tighter course. For the high speed stuff that I go to, actually the handling balance is spot on to me. Would just be nice to increase the cornering limits of the car for tracks like that via doing things like lowering cg, lca relocation etc.

mcmmotorsports: Oh and toe out is to enhance corner entry... Maybe we're already on the same page here. Toe out you can think of as an artificial ackerman effect. So it will enhance how responsive the car is to the initial turning of the steering wheel. Corner entry will be improved.

You have 2 wheels in front with a static distance from each other. So as you can imagine, the inside wheel is going to be turning a sharper radius than the outside wheel. Toe out alters this and ensures that the insight wheel is pointed more sharply into a corner than the outside wheel is...making the wheels carve their own distinct sized "corners". This reduces their fighting each other and makes the car easier to turn in.

I don't really see how that aids in stability (if anything, it makes the car more darty). Thus you find many OE spec alignments to have lots of toe both front and rear (BMW is a good example of this).

Perfect description. BMW actually used to set up their fronts with toe out and rears with zero toe to give "The Ultimate Driving Machine" feeling. Complaints in the 80's by the coke fiend yuppies caused them to add toe in to reduce the dartiness and tramlining on US highways. Later suspension featured suspension links that changed toe during agressive driving to bring the feel back.
Steve
 
I'm at -2.6 camber in the front, zero toe, and max castor. I'm getting great performance on the track but accelerated wear on the inside of my front tires. Do I care? No. I've got 12k on my P Zeros, and repetitive alignments cost more than my street tire replacements. I am curious about Toe out in the front, though. I'm sure some chassis tuned Bosses have some. I'd like to know how much it helps. My Acura RL has neg camber all around, with toe out in the front and toe in in the back, and it's merely a sports sedan. Certainly, some toe out in the front is in order, Eh?
 
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0
Just as FYI, I haven't touched the alignment from delivery and with 14.5K on the PZeros, the general wear is fine except the insides of both front tires are significantly worn down. I've rotated every 5K with the next one due when I unwrap the car in the spring.

My assumption was that the factory alignment was purposely set up for reasonable track performance out of the chute, thus causing more than usual wear on the front inside tread when the car is used off track - which mine is. Since I don't track it, would it make sense to adjust the camber to a more "streetable" spec, or would I risk/notice a decrease in control or handling at higher speeds?
 
jimprw said:
Just as FYI, I haven't touched the alignment from delivery and with 14.5K on the PZeros, the general wear is fine except the insides of both front tires are significantly worn down. I've rotated every 5K with the next one due when I unwrap the car in the spring.

My assumption was that the factory alignment was purposely set up for reasonable track performance out of the chute, thus causing more than usual wear on the front inside tread when the car is used off track - which mine is. Since I don't track it, would it make sense to adjust the camber to a more "streetable" spec, or would I risk/notice a decrease in control or handling at higher speeds?

Don't quote me, but I think if you lessened the camber you actually might see a little bit better top speed handling, you wouldn't have to worry as much about tramlining at least which at high speed is pretty scary.
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
jimprw said:
Just as FYI, I haven't touched the alignment from delivery and with 14.5K on the PZeros, the general wear is fine except the insides of both front tires are significantly worn down. I've rotated every 5K with the next one due when I unwrap the car in the spring.

My assumption was that the factory alignment was purposely set up for reasonable track performance out of the chute, thus causing more than usual wear on the front inside tread when the car is used off track - which mine is. Since I don't track it, would it make sense to adjust the camber to a more "streetable" spec, or would I risk/notice a decrease in control or handling at higher speeds?

Just curious...how have you rotated the tires? Left to right only?

I don't see a problem with reducing the negative camber a bit to save on tire wear for the street. A cheap way to do it is to flip the upper mounts 180 degrees.
 
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Grant 302 said:
Just curious...how have you rotated the tires? Left to right only?

I don't see a problem with reducing the negative camber a bit to save on tire wear for the street. A cheap way to do it is to flip the upper mounts 180 degrees.

Waiiiiiiiit!

Now that you've said that, is there a cheap way to gain more negative camber by playing with the mounts? Or are they already orientated in such a manner that camber is maximized...?
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
boro92 said:
Waiiiiiiiit!

Now that you've said that, is there a cheap way to gain more negative camber by playing with the mounts? Or are they already orientated in such a manner that camber is maximized...?

:) If there was a cheap way to increase negative camber, you can bet it would be widely known...and probably used by me!
 
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Grant 302 said:
Just curious...how have you rotated the tires? Left to right only?

I don't see a problem with reducing the negative camber a bit to save on tire wear for the street. A cheap way to do it is to flip the upper mounts 180 degrees.

Left to right only - absolutely. And it's only the front tires that are wearing on the very inside tread portion only, so I'm pretty sure the alignment is the issue. I found the alignment specs for the Boss in another forum so I'll have the alignment checked when I rotate again in the spring.
 
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14,800 miles and the front Pirelli P Zeros are done. Had the alignment checked, and all parameters well within Boss specific spec...in fact, the alignment was very, very good in feel as well as technically in spec.
So, there appears to be no technical reason why the fronts wore so badly on the inside ribs.
I can understand with soft compound tires that even with reasonable non-track driving I shouldn't expect to get more than 15 - 20k out of them. What still baffles me is why they wear so unevenly in front when still aligned properly. BTW, the rears P Zeros wore evenly inside to outside tread.
I went with the BFG G Force Comp 2 as replacements. As they are directional, I really don't expect any more than 15K from these either, especially since I can't rotate them. But, considering the inside rib wear on both fronts P zeros was almost uniformly awful even with side to side rotation, I guess rotation really doesn't matter to the life of the tread.
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
'Within spec' is a very broad range. For mostly street driven miles, you could try to reduce the negative camber and zero out the toe. (if you were sticking with P Zeros or other asymmetrical tire) The side to side rotation isn't going to help much with this condition and asymmetrical tires like the P zeros.

Switching to the directional SC2s will require you to remount/flip the tires to rotate now. At least you change the inside shoulder out and should see much more mileage with these tires. Just a little more cost to do the rotation now.
 

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