Data nerds - help with Road Atlanta?

Discussion in 'Road Racing Forum' started by Duane Black, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Duane Black

    Duane Black TMO Advanced

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    as i reflect on my past weekend, i checked out data of my best laps. What am I leaving on the table and what can I learn from this? It’s my cell ohone gathering this. Peter Krause told me I need AIM Solo. He’s right but... $$

    Anywho, video if my best laps is here, and Zi uploaded data in order below from lap 1-2. Light background is lap 1. Dark is lap 2.

     

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  2. Duane Black

    Duane Black TMO Advanced

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  3. ArizonaBOSS

    ArizonaBOSS Because racecar. Moderator

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  4. Grant 302

    Grant 302 OPM Spent: $587,402 Moderator

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    Looks like you could work a bit on your lines through the esses.

    The problem with apexing too early shows up when you overshoot the last turn in the series by a bit. Timing of the downshift should be earlier, and I didn't hear a blip. Watching the bubble level near near the 30 sec mark is telling and should 'go round' the bubble smoother than just shooting from the upper left to lower right.

    Hope that helps.
     
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  5. Duane Black

    Duane Black TMO Advanced

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    I had a tough time getting my bearings in the esses, turning before i could see the curb and what not. What do you mean not hearing a blip? Its an auto sport shift so I’m hitting the button, and sometimes it wont downshift when i wan. I think i figured out just after this that I didn’t need 4th going through the esses and i could just cone shy of redline in 3rd. No shifts from 1-5!

    And by bubble moving, you mean i cut to sharp as I moved off 4 and shoukd have made a smoother turn? Sounds sensible if that’s what I’m interpreting.
     
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  6. Grant 302

    Grant 302 OPM Spent: $587,402 Moderator

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    That's what I mean too sharp and too early, missing the last apex. I see it just watching the video and the lines, but confirm what's happening with inputs looking at the bubble.

    The bubble goes round the circle if you're making a smooth transition from the braking to the turn. Watch the bubble in the next turn starting at 45 seconds. Much smoother there, but still room for improvement.

    Ignore my comment about the blip since you have an auto.

    When you have a chance, watch AJ's video in the thread below and watch how well he makes the transition from braking through the turn.

    Sonoma GT2 Qualifing
     
  7. ddozier

    ddozier TMO Intermediate

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    Need more Data

    What tire are you running?
    What mods are you running?
    What type of Mustang are you driving, Year, Trim Level, Performance Pack?

    Dave
     
  8. Duane Black

    Duane Black TMO Advanced

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    2013 v6 on 285 wide rs4 hankooks. Stock springs, koni front struts (full soft. Forgot to adjust up when track dried - yikes!). Lightweight k member, torsen 3.55 differential. And an automatic! I realized watching later I didn’t use curbing in 10a, damn rain instinct. I read what grant posted, never thought to try to use brakes in 11. They recommend some cars need a brush of the brake in 11. I charged hard up the hill but shifted early and modulated throttle through 12, usually back to WOT just before apex. Crazy turn.

    I also needed to turn earlier for the esses and trust the track to be there. Could have been faster and smoother as grant said
     
  9. Bill Pemberton

    Bill Pemberton TMO Addict

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    No kidding , I admired your rush through 12 , and figured when you posted the interesting graph , that the high spike was the heart rate some get going through that corner ,ha,ha. Cool data , and impressive times for a shiftless V6!!
     
  10. ddozier

    ddozier TMO Intermediate

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    Please don't take this as anything more than constructive criticism as you are getting that V6 around the track quite well.

    My issues that I see is more a factor of what my car does and does not like about the curbing at 3 and coming out of 5. You are taking a lot of curb at 3 so much so that the car is likely on two wheels after the initial impact with the curb, if you take about 1 to 1.5 tire widths less curb and turn a millisecond later you will find the car much happier and you can get back on the throttle without any oversteer and you will be able to transition to the left hand turn of 4 much smoother.

    As far as 5 goes the exit curbing at 5 does not work in my current car but my last car was fine with being on it. I have adjusted my line over the years to avoid the exit curb all together and my times have improved and I have the option to run inside slower traffic for the pass much easier. I will say your car does not really seam to be that upset by running all 4 over the curb but I wonder if there is much of an advantage and what impact it will have on the longevity of your suspension.

    Given the tire you were on I am not surprised but you seam to be over braking for turn 1, 6, 7, 10a. Even on the RS4 you may be able to carry a little more corner speed through 1 for sure and 6 as both have very favorable camber in the road to load the tire. 1 is a late apex near the end of the apex curbing but you need to allow the car to drift out on exit and keep the power on, there is plenty of time to get the car back to the right side as you power up the hill. 6 is a lot faster than most guys are willing to try, put a tire on the inside apex curbing and the camber will help turn the car then you have to worry about 7 as you will be rolling much more speed out of 6. 7 is all about working your way up to carrying more speed as it is always slick and off camber, You have to get to the apex curb or you will be so late in getting back to the power you will pay on the straight. 10a you should be able to carry more speed, brake later, a later turn in and use all of the inside curb (but do not go inside the curb there is a huge hole at the end of the curb that will remove the suspension from the car if provoked). 12 looks good just need to do a gut check and try for more apex speed, it is a high risk turn.

    I use Harry's with an external GPS receiver for my data collection and find it a very good solution when compared to the Solo, I like the ability to have my track data in my phone for later reference whenever I may need it.

    I have added a link to a session where I was playing camera car for the Blue S550 and a Red ZL1-1LE. I was running about 3-4 secs off my normal pace but you can see their lines better from a chase car. It is a long video with lots of traffic but once I get a cleanish lap at the end I was able to drop closer to my normal lap times. I can run 1:36 in traffic and 1:35.10 is my fastest clean lap of that weekend. I realize this is an apples and oranges kind of deal but if it helps you find some time its worth a try.



    Dave
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
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  11. Bill Pemberton

    Bill Pemberton TMO Addict

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    Nice suggestions and DDozier if you are located over in the St. Louis Area you need to seriously consider coming to Hastings, Nebraska in September for the Mustang Roundup. We get quite a few folks from Missouri ( a few that bring a Show Me State's worth of cereal malt beverages ,ha) and you would have a riot with all the serious Motorheads that convene for this Track Attack. Call me if you have any questions and I am sure Duane appreciated the time and effort you spent in giving him some other ideas for Road Atlanta. Improvement never stops in our sport and always good to get a critique from others , especially one as quick as you!
     
  12. Duane Black

    Duane Black TMO Advanced

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    Definitely good points. I was shocked I wasn’t faster in 6, I’m a NASCAR guy, I should know how banking works! I need to get it in my mind i can use curbs-maybe i was scared from the early rain but still, that’s making excuses. Turn 3 curb felt good but one of those hits knocked the right front toe out and bumped my helmet into a door post.

    Peter Krause says he never saw a data trace indicating that using the turn 5 curbing is faster. He and Ross Bentley argue about that turn actually, as do many others. This day was the first time I used it. Ross Bentley even said most people using it are trying to advance theor career with a big time.

    I saw data traces indicating some laps o was even 5mph quicker in 10a after you said something. I ran a 1:49.42 losing time in 1 and gaining it all back in 10a.

    Turn 1 showed 1.1g, i feel like thats all the car has. I’ve gone into that corner 4mph faster than that but ended up overslowing. Maybe i need more brave pills! I even told @Apex3V to brake lighter, not later. It’s the usual philosophy I use when building entry speed, then move your brake marker up later. I never got faster doing that in 1 though.

    It looks like based on data I’m looking for a tenth here and there. I overslowee a couple corners, but not drastically? A tenth here and there and I’m running 1:48.33 next time, right?
     
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  13. ddozier

    ddozier TMO Intermediate

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    It always hard to judge a car you have never driven but I see maybe more than that, I am always amazed when I find time on the track because it is rarely in a corner I am looking for it when I just watch video. When I look at sector times and go back and watch video to look at what I did right or wrong I usually find the time I picked up in my fastest sector time was one that I did different than my normal path through that corner. I always have to balance that with the impact on the next corner or sector but I am usually surprised. Once I incorporate the change in my normal lap then I can determine if it is a consistently faster path.

    When I made the change in turn 6 to trust the camber the biggest impact was on turn 7 and what happens when you carry a lot of speed out of 6 and into the entry of 7. I found that my car would handle more entry speed and a later apex but I kept getting balked by the drivers that could not carry speed into 7 or they were content with a slow in fast out approach to turn 7. I could easily pickup 3 maybe 4 car lengths from the apex of 6 to the braking zone of 7, but since they were going on the preferred line about 5-8mph slower than me I could not take advantage because of the off-camber nature of turn 7. If you do not get to the apex at 7 or apex too early you will loose tons of exit speed, be very late back to the throttle, and pay all the way down the straight. Turn 7 can be a 1.5 second swing alone because of how it impacts the straight.

    Anyway you are on the right path and Road Atlanta is a track that takes a lot of laps to get right, I rarely string together a perfect lap there. Even as my lap times progress so does my virtual best lap time so I know there is more to get. Just have to keep plugging away at it.

    I will be back there on November 23-24th with MVP if it works with your schedule you should join us, there is usually a large group of Mustang guys at that event and most of them are FAST. MVP is always packed with some fast cars and its fun to surprise a few of them with a little-o Mustang.

    Dave
     
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  14. ddozier

    ddozier TMO Intermediate

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    Thanks for the kind words, I have never been to Hastings, All the Viper guys I track with run there every year but I have not made the trip. I may have to do that. I have a whole in my schedule for September so that may work.

    Dave
     
  15. Duane Black

    Duane Black TMO Advanced

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    Dave, thanks for the pointers. Cant make a post asking for help and complain when you get it! Besides, I’m making notes of this for when I go back but it will likely be next year honestly.

    I once told someone Road Atlanta is about having the most skill, the most nerve, and not exceeding the limits of either.
     
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  16. Dion von Moltke

    Dion von Moltke TMO Beginner

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    Great thread, thanks for the shoutout @ArizonaBOSS!

    If I were to mention one thing I would focus in on your turn in points. They are still very "DE" ish. I wish most clubs would adjust away from this very late and hard turn in. If you want to work on improving it would come by working on entry speed, but that needs to come by working on actually turning in earlier (even a little bit into the esses, so I know some will disagree with me here) but critically these earlier turn ins must be combined with slower turn ins. That will allow you to get ready to start focusing on the next step which would be in the brake zone.

    Hope some of this helps! And of course if you want any more detailed help I hope you will consider our online remote but personal coaching at Racers360. We can take your video and or data and film a personal coaching session on top of it!
     
  17. Duane Black

    Duane Black TMO Advanced

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    Yea the place I most noticed this was Daytona. Guys would nearly drive off the horseshoes before turning and I’m running them down turning earlier. My fastest ever lap at VIR was a very early turn into 1 as well and I found it peculiar. I got forced off line and learned something! I’ll start being mindful of that!
     
  18. Bill Pemberton

    Bill Pemberton TMO Addict

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    ddozier.......you need to make it to Hastings, because we also sponsor the Viper Rendezvous and all your Viper friends are also good friends of mine, ha! I am sure we have a bunch of mutual acquaintances. I know the St. Louis Snakecharmers really enjoy MPH, and the Mustang event is run in a very similar vein. The biggest difference is the large group of Dearborn Blue Oval Engineers who come down to participate with us. We have had some wonderful guys from FCA show up some years ( Ralph Gilles came down with his Viper and ran with us ) , but we get anywhere from 3-8 Ford guys every year who raced against us!
     
  19. ddozier

    ddozier TMO Intermediate

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    I am sure we both know the usual suspect in the Viper world it is a small group that actually track their cars. Last year Ralph Gilles ended up with a Viper at Putnam Park the same weekend a bunch of us from STL went. He showed up in a Gen5 with some prototype engine that had some crazy amount of NA power and a huge aero package as well. I have been chasing Vipers for the last 10 years on track now but its like bringing a butter knife to a fencing match and expecting a good result.

    See if you recognize the ACRx clone Viper in this Video:


    Dave
     
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  20. Bill Pemberton

    Bill Pemberton TMO Addict

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    Oh, yes, I completely understand, as have run against all your buddies when I had my ACR. Have everyone teasing me now, as my current Viper sits in the garage, the queen that she is , the track not for her beautiful blue body. The Boss is different than the ACR was, but both are very satisfying track machines. Both live under a cloud of misconceptions, and in many ways they are both quite fun to use in destroying those unfound biases?! The Mustang is a joy for surprising people ,as most can not figure out how a machine with a Blue Oval could pass their Euro exotic machines, Corvettes, etc.? Underdog racing has it's own pleasures!

    PS- Do know the ACR-X clone in the video , happened to have sold him a Viper. You would do very well at Hastings , you are definitely a solid circuit carver!
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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