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S197 FTWMS #50 S197 NASA Super Touring Racecar Build Thread Profile - S197 Mustangs

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Fabman

Dances with Racecars
6,586
8,257
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Pleasanton: 1/2 way between Sonoma and Laguna Seca
Stuff is tough to see even after taking "durability" precautions such as oil pump gears, road race pan, good rods and pistons, valve springs and ARP hardware etc. Almost makes me think a stock longblock takes you to the same place for a lot less $$. May need to replace sooner but cost is almost 2:1 on the high end stuff. Ford Gen 3 long blocks are $5900 right now. That is a bargain. If you can do a stand alone ABS and steering the Gen 3 will make the power. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6006-m50c/make/ford
Ditto on the stock gen 3.
A short block and ported gen 1 heads and L&M cams will get you around 500 wheel and no electrical drama.
Talk to shaun, he can send you the same package @Mad Hatter has. These motors are incredibly strong provided you do a few oiling mods.
 

captdistraction

GrumpyRacer
1,955
1,699
Phoenix, Az
Stuff is tough to see even after taking "durability" precautions such as oil pump gears, road race pan, good rods and pistons, valve springs and ARP hardware etc. Almost makes me think a stock longblock takes you to the same place for a lot less $$. May need to replace sooner but cost is almost 2:1 on the high end stuff. Ford Gen 3 long blocks are $5900 right now. That is a bargain. If you can do a stand alone ABS and steering the Gen 3 will make the power. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6006-m50c/make/ford

The problem with these is always the nickel and dime stuff - a gen3 longblock is a bargain, but by the time I get the controls to run it going and figure out how to retain ABS and EPAS (with some spendy boxes, more wiring, etc) I'll be near the same number. Same for crazy LS swaps, etc. I have a line on a gen2 longblock as well - though I can dig myself out any number of ways it comes down to how do I avoid this again and what did I learn?

This time around I've learned nothing (other than this motor was super healthy outside the pump failure). If I could understand why the pump failed, I'd feel better about plunking cash one way or another. The long downtime component is that I've hit my limit with this car, I won't take on any debt to fix it sooner. There was a long time I'd let this car stretch me to the absolute limits financially, but that time is long gone. The new job helps for sure, however.

Ditto on the stock gen 3.
A short block and ported gen 1 heads and L&M cams will get you around 500 wheel and no electrical drama.
Talk to shaun, he can send you the same package @Mad Hatter has. These motors are incredibly strong provided you do a few oiling mods.

I've been talking with Shaun - I've considered it though he was pushing me towards a AEDHP gen1 package. Also reaching out to Bret Barber to see if these heads are discard or not. In theory if I were to stay wet sump, the crank is salvageable and same for the heads and cams, this is $4k less than what I put above, and possibly much less depending on what else I do. I already looked at the titanium retainers, they look great and can go back in with the PAC-1234x springs. I also don't have any contingency factored in my estimates, so I'm sure there's 15-20% I'm not accounting for.

Pictures of the boundary pump and crankshaft: (note, no pitchforks just yet for anyone - and again, shouldn't be. I am the destroyer of worlds, and this thing lasted longer than expected. Travis from Boundary and I have been going over all the evidence and we haven't been able to lock down the "why")

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Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
5,289
4,292
Santiago, Chile
Sad to see those pics... Interesting note. When Shaun was building my motor I sent him the same Boundry oil pump with backing plate etc... and he rejected it and ended up putting in a stock pump with TSS gears. He said the gears were loose inside the Boundry pump and would not install it in a motor he built.

I managed to sell the pump to some one else and asked them to check the clearances etc.
 
Captain sorry to see the carnage. Did you or the engine builder measure the OPG tolerances before installing? I've seen a couple examples of various aftermarket OPG's (Boundary, MMR, and maybe another) being considerably out of spec brand new.
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
8,735
2,740
Arizona, USA
Chris FWIW there are mentions of Gen 3 factory short blocks, but based on @steveespo 's other thread about 5.2 short-block custom builds, I am strongly considering putting a 5.2 short block in and using Gen 1 heads. They (Steve & @2012-Boss ) are showing 30-40hp bump with similar uptick in midrange torque. Cost roughly the same.
 
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Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
5,289
4,292
Santiago, Chile
Chris FWIW there are mentions of Gen 3 factory short blocks, but based on @steveespo 's other thread about 5.2 short-block custom builds, I am strongly considering putting a 5.2 short block in and using Gen 1 heads. They are showing 30-40hp bump with similar uptick in midrange torque. Cost roughly the same.
I always liked the idea of the 5.2. But when I looked at prices, the 5.2 block alone was the same price as a gen3 Shortblock. Not to mention that the 5.2 Shorblock is really hard to find as well.
 

captdistraction

GrumpyRacer
1,955
1,699
Phoenix, Az
Sad to see those pics... Interesting note. When Shaun was building my motor I sent him the same Boundry oil pump with backing plate etc... and he rejected it and ended up putting in a stock pump with TSS gears. He said the gears were loose inside the Boundry pump and would not install it in a motor he built.

I managed to sell the pump to some one else and asked them to check the clearances etc.
I’ve destroyed/damaged four brands of pumps: frpp/tss, mmr, stock and now boundary. I know Shaun has a dislike of boundary. I can try another brand but who wants to wager on how long it takes me to break that too. When we blueprinted my motor, we didn’t have any issues with the housing to pump clearances - but.I did find something interesting tonight:EEC40AD8-84AD-45AE-B9CD-BFA6B6DB23D1.jpeg995FC3B6-8F6D-495C-A284-5A95FEA58B2E.jpeg5CFA9170-28C9-48B4-9A29-54E718BEA0F5.jpeg

while I don’t think a bit of rubber could kill the pump maybe it caught on the vane porting or pushed it past tolerance. I’m going to strain the drained oil and look for the rubber- I didn’t see it in the filter or the pickup tube
 
1,191
2,203
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
SoCal
I’ve destroyed/damaged four brands of pumps: frpp/tss, mmr, stock and now boundary. I know Shaun has a dislike of boundary. I can try another brand but who wants to wager on how long it takes me to break that too. When we blueprinted my motor, we didn’t have any issues with the housing to pump clearances - but.I did find something interesting tonight:View attachment 84438View attachment 84439View attachment 84440

while I don’t think a bit of rubber could kill the pump maybe it caught on the vane porting or pushed it past tolerance. I’m going to strain the drained oil and look for the rubber- I didn’t see it in the filter or the pickup tube
I don’t recognize that rubber piece - what’s it from?
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
8,735
2,740
Arizona, USA
I’ve destroyed/damaged four brands of pumps: frpp/tss, mmr, stock and now boundary. I know Shaun has a dislike of boundary. I can try another brand but who wants to wager on how long it takes me to break that too. When we blueprinted my motor, we didn’t have any issues with the housing to pump clearances - but.I did find something interesting tonight:View attachment 84438View attachment 84439View attachment 84440

while I don’t think a bit of rubber could kill the pump maybe it caught on the vane porting or pushed it past tolerance. I’m going to strain the drained oil and look for the rubber- I didn’t see it in the filter or the pickup tube
What is that rubber threaded thing for?
 

captdistraction

GrumpyRacer
1,955
1,699
Phoenix, Az
Reviewing the data - I spent the whole time in Chuckwalla's bowl (2 laps shown for comparison) on throttle while the oil pump had died. The high pressure accusump doesn't seem to buy much time (looking at the delta between OilPress -going into engine and OilPress2 - read at the housing before the valve for accusump).

Certainly explains all the bearing wear.

Screenshot 2023-03-02 114841.png
 
787
1,211
TX
That's the oil pump inlet seal (GT350/FP350S style)

View attachment 84450
that's most likely what did it. I know of a gent with a GT350 who had that seal go as well and it trashed his entire short block. Ugh.

Mine started to do that, but I caught it in time purely by chance (when I found out I snapped the pickup tube mount).
 
787
1,211
TX
Reviewing the data - I spent the whole time in Chuckwalla's bowl (2 laps shown for comparison) on throttle while the oil pump had died. The high pressure accusump doesn't seem to buy much time (looking at the delta between OilPress -going into engine and OilPress2 - read at the housing before the valve for accusump).

Certainly explains all the bearing wear.

View attachment 84451
that's depressing. Thanks for sharing - I was just wondering if an accusump is actually worth it on a new build. This makes me think not.
 
899
548
Unfortunately, CJ pump does not work with the pickup tube needed for the FP350S oil pan. Having said that, the GT500 pump, pan and pickup does not use a grommet on the pump for the pickup.
 

steveespo

Lord knows I'm a Voodoo Child
Moderator
4,047
2,019
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Cookeville TN
Unfortunately, CJ pump does not work with the pickup tube needed for the FP350S oil pan. Having said that, the GT500 pump, pan and pickup does not use a grommet on the pump for the pickup.
With the correct pickup it does. For 5.0L applications use M-6622-M50RR pickup tube.
 

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