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Sway Bar Question

I was looking at the Kenny Brown Panhard Rod relocation kit. In the video and on some posts here there was the suggestion of running no rear sway bar or a small rear sway bar.

Question, what constitutes a small sway bar?? Would using a V-6 be a proper choice? Is there a smaller aftermarket one?

If doing the relocation kit is the rear, are taller ball joints a necessity on the front?? Does the same hold true for the front that holds in the rear?? Change the roll center, run a smaller roll bar??

Thanks....
 
A friend of mine just installed teh KB Roll Center Relocation kit and is not planning on using a rear sway bar. We're both headed to Sonoma next Saturday and I'll post up how his car works without the sway bar. He also installed most of their handling kit including the front LCA's.
 
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2012Boss302 said:
I was looking at the Kenny Brown Panhard Rod relocation kit. In the video and on some posts here there was the suggestion of running no rear sway bar or a small rear sway bar.

Question, what constitutes a small sway bar?? Would using a V-6 be a proper choice? Is there a smaller aftermarket one?

If doing the relocation kit is the rear, are taller ball joints a necessity on the front?? Does the same hold true for the front that holds in the rear?? Change the roll center, run a smaller roll bar??

Thanks....

That's a great kit. It'll give you more corner exit grip on power...and you can put the power down earlier with the lower rear roll center. The back end will just be more compliant.
KB explains that the big rear bar is to reduce weight jacking in the back end when cornering (limit how much the unloaded side moves upward, contributing to body roll out back). Removing the rear bar will yield more grip for sure.

However, other factors are at play here. your spring rates to be specific! What are your rates? Do you have sufficient rates to hold up the back end when there is no longer any support from a sway bar? If you have any aftermarket spring package (read: non coilover), you certainly don't have enough spring. So you'll want to keep a bar. Just pop a smaller one on. No idea what the V6 bar size is though unfortunately...

RE: front roll center relocation kit. It's only necessary if you lowered your car over stock front ride height!

Keep in mind that when purchasing these parts, you are addressing a particular element of handling. So to better answer your question: What is it that you're gunning for? When out at the track, what sort of improvements would you prefer to see from your car? What's your current setup, tires, and pressures?
 
boro92 said:
Keep in mind that when purchasing these parts, you are addressing a particular element of handling. So to better answer your question: What is it that you're gunning for? When out at the track, what sort of improvements would you prefer to see from your car? What's your current setup, tires, and pressures?

To be honest I cannot answer your question because I am too new at turning. I've got one track day under my belt and honestly, the car felt really good to me.

Aside from just educating myself on the suspension SYSTEM, I'd have to say I'm looking for more confidence in corner entry. All I have now is the Ford "P" spring. Everything else down to the tires are OE
 
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2012Boss302 said:
To be honest I cannot answer your question because I am too new at turning. I've got one track day under my belt and honestly, the car felt really good to me.

Aside from just educating myself on the suspension SYSTEM, I'd have to say I'm looking for more confidence in corner entry. All I have now is the Ford "P" spring. Everything else down to the tires are OE

Well, you're in a good place :) Many folks wouldn't realize that they aren't certain of what they're looking for because they need more seat time before things really start to mesh together. And that's perfectly fine!

P springs are a mild drop, and you shouldn't need roll center correction up front. If you were to install the roll center ball joints on the front, your car would be more "pointy" at initial turn in--that is, the car will respond more rapidly to steering inputs and be directed to the apex at a faster rate/requiring less steering input. Depending on setup, this can sometimes be a bit hairy, as chassis balance has the potential to get upset easier. It's faster to respond, but reaches limits quicker. As a car's setup is refined to be better and better, and to reach limits sooner (and stay on it), the car also becomes less forgiving. Just something to keep in mind.

I think you'll find increased confidence from the rear roll center relocation panhard. That, and I believe (if I remember right) that the panhard bar uses heim joints. Less bind and also no flex...so you'll get increased precision. Also, as the backend is more planted, you'll feel more confident as a result. You did the right thing :)

Let us know how you feel after your next track event. I'm sure you'll come back pleasantly surprised at the difference roll center can make. As for what's next? You'll eventually hit a point where you find the P springs and current struts are the limiting factor. The P springs are at a good ride height, but they are way, way soft and yields quite a bit of understeer as you push it more and more (compared with other setups). Of course though, this is a good thing. It's safe understeer coupled with the more planted rear end...it'll be confidence inspiring, and you won't be afraid to push it. Definitely helps you learn the car and your own limits out there.

EDIT: as for what rear sway bar to replace with? I don't know. P springs are so soft that you're still going to need to run a bar back there. You will find advantages of running a softer one, however. This is the fun part! Discovery, testing and refining. IMO, I'd get the smallest stock bar you can find, pop it on there and then see how it goes. Change as needed.

EDIT 2: Noticed you don't have LCA relocation brackets. You'll gain a big advantage when running these (can get on power earlier mid corner...more back end bite under power!). This combined with your lowered rear roll center will make big differences (infact, it might even give you too much on power push--I'd be interested to hear your feedback with these 2 combined items out there at the track).
 
Thanks for all the answers. I love a site that doesn't flame and tries to honestly help and educate.

I think the best course of action for me right now would be to learn the car as it sits. It's still so far above me right now and I'm learning what it can do. I think when the day comes that I start over driving the car then I need to change stuff.

With that said I do think the LCA relocation brackets would be a definate add on. Any particular brand. I was looking at Whiteline or Kenny Brown. Keep in mind I have BMR NON-adjustable LCA.
 
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2012Boss302 said:
Thanks for all the answers. I love a site that doesn't flame and tries to honestly help and educate.

I think the best course of action for me right now would be to learn the car as it sits. It's still so far above me right now and I'm learning what it can do. I think when the day comes that I start over driving the car then I need to change stuff.

With that said I do think the LCA relocation brackets would be a definate add on. Any particular brand. I was looking at Whiteline or Kenny Brown. Keep in mind I have BMR NON-adjustable LCA.

You nailed it. That's the perfect thing to do! Seat time and developing yourself is the best thing to do.
Once you're there, you'll know exactly what you want out of a car and it'll become more and more tailored to your tastes (from a driving and vehicle dynamics perspective).

RE: LCA brackets - The P springs don't lower the car too much, so you'll want a bracket that doesn't have holes that are much further down from factory. IMO, anything with multiple holes (ie: Whiteline) will be suitable. Use the hole furthest from the ground. IIRC, the Kenny Brown brackets were designed for a rear drop of 1.5inch or more...and may be too big of a difference for the P springs (which are 1 inch, aren't they?). When one overdoes a LCA relocation setup, one can actually cause instability under braking! You want the LCA parallel to the ground, or slightly angled (with the axle side being lower than the chassis side).
 
boro92 said:
You nailed it. That's the perfect thing to do! Seat time and developing yourself is the best thing to do.
Once you're there, you'll know exactly what you want out of a car and it'll become more and more tailored to your tastes (from a driving and vehicle dynamics perspective).

RE: LCA brackets - The P springs don't lower the car too much, so you'll want a bracket that doesn't have holes that are much further down from factory. IMO, anything with multiple holes (ie: Whiteline) will be suitable. Use the hole furthest from the ground. IIRC, the Kenny Brown brackets were designed for a rear drop of 1.5inch or more...and may be too big of a difference for the P springs (which are 1 inch, aren't they?). When one overdoes a LCA relocation setup, one can actually cause instability under braking! You want the LCA parallel to the ground, or slightly angled (with the axle side being lower than the chassis side).
[/quote

Actually any relo bracket is limited to the factory lca mounting bracket. So the first hole cant be closer that 2" from the factory position, because the bracket is in the way. Steeda has holes that are closer, but you cant use the first hole because the factory mount is blocking it. The issue alot of people have came acrros w/ BMR style mounts is that the wheels arent even front to back on each side i.e the rear driverside wheel is 1/2" closer to the front of the car than the pass side. BMR is releasing a revised version in 1-2 months. For now the best option out there IMO is the 302s relos, but welded in.

With P springs its a toss-up, you're not going to have the lca's level. W/o brackets they'll point up slightly and w/ brackets they'll point down slightly.
 
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2012Boss302 said:
I was looking at the Kenny Brown Panhard Rod relocation kit. In the video and on some posts here there was the suggestion of running no rear sway bar or a small rear sway bar.

Question, what constitutes a small sway bar?? Would using a V-6 be a proper choice? Is there a smaller aftermarket one?

If doing the relocation kit is the rear, are taller ball joints a necessity on the front?? Does the same hold true for the front that holds in the rear?? Change the roll center, run a smaller roll bar??

Thanks....

FWIW I had several discussion with the Roush guys at various tracks and was making sport of their setups. They were running tiny rear sway bars, (I offered to make them some extras out of piano wire), the point is, not running a rear bar ( or using the smallest diameter one possible) might be a good idea under some circumstances. Their bars were (I'm guessing a little here) as small as 1/2 inch.
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
8,641
2,593
Arizona, USA
The smaller the swaybar, the more ultimate grip you will have. The downside is you will also have more body roll. With the RCRK, I'm guessing they are making enough of a difference in the roll center to get the best of both, at least with their calibrated system.
 
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blacksheep-1 said:
FWIW I had several discussion with the Roush guys at various tracks and was making sport of their setups. They were running tiny rear sway bars, (I offered to make them some extras out of piano wire), the point is, not running a rear bar ( or using the smallest diameter one possible) might be a good idea under some circumstances. Their bars were (I'm guessing a little here) as small as 1/2 inch.

Must rwd track or race cars will run the smallest rear bar they can get away with. One can just put power to the ground sooner--which is the primary advantage of rwd to begin with. But to do this, one needs supporting spring rates to take care of it.
With the 122lb/in of the Ford Racing P springs (which is actually a lighter rear spring rate than stock), you're going to want to run a bar...and probably not the smallest one can get away with. That soft rate needs to be compensated with a larger bar.

That, and the lowered rear roll center reduces weight jacking, but actually increases the length of the moment arm between the cg and the rc (so it causes more body roll). Body roll (with reduced weight jacking) in this case means the loaded side of the car compresses the suspension more with this setup. So a bar needs to be run.

Knowing now that the P springs are only 122lb/in (got that info from Vorschlag :D) out back, I wonder if keeping the stock bar as is will be fine. I say for the initial run/test at the track, just leave as is. Run with the stock bar and report back! And reduce rear tire pressure if the back end is too squirrely (but I doubt it).
 

Dig-It

Kevin
236
8
VA
I ran the KB RCRK at VIR this last weekend - with no rear sway bar, Steeda Boss springs, stock struts and shocks. I was able to get a full course lap time of 2:20 on the stock Pirelli Corsas and 2:17 on Hoosier slicks. I'm sold on the KB parts.
 
Dig-It said:
I ran the KB RCRK at VIR this last weekend - with no rear sway bar, Steeda Boss springs, stock struts and shocks. I was able to get a full course lap time of 2:20 on the stock Pirelli Corsas and 2:17 on Hoosier slicks. I'm sold on the KB parts.

I'm installing a Whiteline 27mm sway bar right now, just decided to see what other members are saying. More confused I may be taking my LS in the wrong direction? I have Eibach Pro springs and looking for more grip in the corners.
 

j3st3r

Brian S.
604
375
Tennessee
Insurme said:
I'm installing a Whiteline 27mm sway bar right now, just decided to see what other members are saying. More confused I may be taking my LS in the wrong direction? I have Eibach Pro springs and looking for more grip in the corners.
I am currently running that exact setup and very happy with it
 
If i were in a similar situation my next upgrades would be tires and brakes.
you mentioned you wanted more corner entry confidence; better tires could provide that confidence with added neg. camber.

when i started tracking, i left suspension alone for a while and just upgraded tires and brakes until i was over driving the car's suspension. At that point i had enough knowledge of the track, and driving experience to upgrade suspension components to fit my driving style.

one thing you'll realize... is that once you start tracking, you'll keep noticing the car's next weakest link. and you'll end up upgrading components until the car is no longer street legal :p unless you have self-control lol
 
F.D. Sako said:
If i were in a similar situation my next upgrades would be tires and brakes.
you mentioned you wanted more corner entry confidence; better tires could provide that confidence with added neg. camber.

when i started tracking, i left suspension alone for a while and just upgraded tires and brakes until i was over driving the car's suspension. At that point i had enough knowledge of the track, and driving experience to upgrade suspension components to fit my driving style.

one thing you'll realize... is that once you start tracking, you'll keep noticing the car's next weakest link. and you'll end up upgrading components until the car is no longer street legal :p unless you have self-control lol

Not much control here. I have tracked this car a few times already. Just moved up from novice run group. Not exactly sure why I decided I needed another sway bar. I think my oem bar is heavier but 26mm vs 27mm. My next purchase will be pads for sure. Stock PZeros seem to be great track tires.
 

pufferfish

Supporting Vendor
1,094
66
Maryland
Dig-It said:
I ran the KB RCRK at VIR this last weekend - with no rear sway bar, Steeda Boss springs, stock struts and shocks. I was able to get a full course lap time of 2:20 on the stock Pirelli Corsas and 2:17 on Hoosier slicks. I'm sold on the KB parts.
can you give a lap time before the parts to compare?
 
j3st3r said:
I am currently running that exact setup and very happy with it



Justin,

Your reference to Vorshlag's site for install instructions for Whiteline sway bar was a great tip for me. Whiteline's instructions were useless.
 
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FWIW my "guy" at Mid Ohio informed me that the Boss Mustangs were using so much "squat" in the rear that they were lifting the inside (front) tires on most of the corners. You guys might want to give Joe a call at Phoenix because they have a decent setup on their car that works well. Keep in mind no one setup will work on all tracks at all temperatures in all conditions. The Roush guys usually show up with at least 4 rear sway bars in tow at every track.
Hopefully this will help in your crusades.
 

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