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SN95 Teach me: I need more front grip

Not the DaveW you were looking for, but two things come to mind....

Have you tried less camber?

Otherwise, I would throw rear spring at it. You are braking too deap in the tight stuff and causing the push on exit, but the steady state is pretty bad in sweepers. Terrible actually.

Its a Mustang. You have brake and turn early and drive out with the back. :)

DaveW
 
530
519
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Kansas City, Missouri
Not the DaveW you were looking for, but two things come to mind....

Have you tried less camber?

Otherwise, I would throw rear spring at it. You are braking too deap in the tight stuff and causing the push on exit, but the steady state is pretty bad in sweepers. Terrible actually.

Its a Mustang. You have brake and turn early and drive out with the back. :)

DaveW
Less camber is a consideration to help braking. It did seem to help corner grip though. Jack actually had me take rear spring out. From 325 down to 275.
 
We are all over the place here. Is there a braking problem too?

I am focusing on the mid/exit push which from those videos show as pretty severe in the sweepers.

You either need more front grip or less rear to get the balance back.

4 degrees is a lot of camber, even though the Yoks like a lot. With the fairly stuff front srpings, you could actually have too much camber at slight steering angles and low body roll (like those sweepers) which is reducing front grip.

What problem was Jack trying to solve when he had you reduce spring rate in the rear? That would make the car pushier, which is opposite of what we want.

I don't *think* you want much softer spring in the front. If you add rear bar it is going to want to lift a tire.

My suggestion would be to put the 325 springs back in and back out a little camber in front, 3.6-3.75 and see what it does.

DaveW
 
530
519
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Kansas City, Missouri
I originally had 425F/325R just based off the recommendation charts without talking to anyone. I also had Steeda front and rear sway bars. I talked to Jack about optimizing my setup based on my actual weights, etc. He had me go to the 275 rear spring to obtain "level ride" and go to bigger sway bars both front and rear.

There is not necessarily a braking problem but with 4° camber I'm sure it's hurting it some. I can lock up the brakes if I'm not careful.
 
417
430
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Snowy North
The simple answer - lol- is prolly a combo of a bit more front RD and a bit more rear spring.

A bit more front RD is as easy as opening the adjuster a half turn (provided that this won't put you in th Koni hypersensitive last half turn to full hard). Try it... simpler than a spring change.

If you arrive at a solution that includes a heavier rear spring...go gently to the apex...could hop a wheel if you're demon trailng while transferring weight longitudinally and laterally (less compliance on the inside rear wheel) ...esp if you get into little ripple bumps on entry. Been there and ate asphalt too many times while bike racing.

Good luck!
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
520
554
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
There is not necessarily a braking problem but with 4° camber I'm sure it's hurting it some. I can lock up the brakes if I'm not careful.
I think what the other DaveW is getting to is that you want a flatter contact patch under braking than -4 deg camber gives you. Think of it this way - if only the inside edges of the tires are making contact in a straight line, of course it will be easy to lock the tires.
 
I think what the other DaveW is getting to is that you want a flatter contact patch under braking than -4 deg camber gives you. Think of it this way - if only the inside edges of the tires are making contact in a straight line, of course it will be easy to lock the tires.
I was actually ignoring the possible braking problem since it came out of left field. :) The 4 degrees camber might work in a tighter turn where there is body roll giving a flat contact patch, but might not in a lower steering angle with less body roll, hence my thinking that less may be more. Not 100% on the Yoks though. I know the STS/R/X guys that run it are doing crazy camber numbers (4-5 degrees)like back in the Toyo R1R days

Of course, everything is a compromise, yada, yada. I like a loose car, but i'd rather have a low speed tight turn push than a sweeper one.

DaveW
 
530
519
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Kansas City, Missouri
I was actually ignoring the possible braking problem since it came out of left field. :) The 4 degrees camber might work in a tighter turn where there is body roll giving a flat contact patch, but might not in a lower steering angle with less body roll, hence my thinking that less may be more. Not 100% on the Yoks though. I know the STS/R/X guys that run it are doing crazy camber numbers (4-5 degrees)like back in the Toyo R1R days

Of course, everything is a compromise, yada, yada. I like a loose car, but i'd rather have a low speed tight turn push than a sweeper one.

DaveW
I'll try less and see if it helps.
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
520
554
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
Had a chance to watch vids. In both, there's a buzzing noise in some of the left-handers, especilly that long one at the end. Wondering if you're getting tire rub that's contributing to the handling issues.

PS - Like the "woo-hoo" at the end of the second run. I do that, too.
 
530
519
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Kansas City, Missouri
Had a chance to watch vids. In both, there's a buzzing noise in some of the left-handers, especilly that long one at the end. Wondering if you're getting tire rub that's contributing to the handling issues.

PS - Like the "woo-hoo" at the end of the second run. I do that, too.
It's some very slight tire rub on the back.
 
530
519
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Kansas City, Missouri
The simple answer - lol- is prolly a combo of a bit more front RD and a bit more rear spring.

A bit more front RD is as easy as opening the adjuster a half turn (provided that this won't put you in th Koni hypersensitive last half turn to full hard). Try it... simpler than a spring change.

Just to clarify; by "more" rebound dampening to you mean increase or decrease? When you say "more" I'm thinking stiffer but you also said open the adjuster and that seems like less but I could be thinking about things the wrong way.
 
417
430
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Snowy North
Sorry...more means stiffer. Some of the Koni stuff goes firmer as the adjuster is opened.

Not sure if this applies to your stuff.....so pls consult your product literature ;).
 
530
519
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Kansas City, Missouri
I saw on Instagram had an autocross. Did you make any changes to help this issue? How did the car feel at this event?
Yes, I moved up to the bigger rear sway bar that Jack recommended along with less camber on the front and less tire pressure. It made a massive difference. The car that won CAM-T at nationals last year is in my local club. I'm usually pretty consistent at 1-1.5 seconds off his pace. Saturday he beat me by .08 and Sunday I beat him by .12. I'm very happy with the changes.
 
530
519
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Kansas City, Missouri
This wasn't my fastest run because my GoPro is a giant piece of shiznit but it shows the difference. There are several spots in this course that would have had massive understeer before. The long sweeper at the beginning and those tight gates at the end.
 
73
106
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Cumming, Georgia
You could try turning-in just a tad later that will help maximize corner exit speed. I know it's easier said than done on a tight autocross course. Suspension wise I would first try stiffen the rear bar as you say it's adjustable / easy. Then I would open the Toe 1/8" open and max-out the caster, the closer to 7 degrees the better. 4 degrees camber negative seems like a lot but your tires look good on the picture. You could also try to either slightly lower front ride height or raise the rear (Easy to try at the track). Finally try a softer front spring and/or ARB you can try the stock one, many folks use it.

About stiffening the rear bar: Pay attention to your corner exit / see if you get excessive inside wheel wheelspin in tight corners. If that happens you need to go back to the softer rear bar and instead focus on softening stuff up-front.
 
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