Time Trial groups

[bronco100]

Thanks for being the first person to reply with a measured response providing some sensible perspective and good feedback.

I don't get the feeling you were trying to troll anyone. You were sharing your experience, which conflicted with what Alessandro has experienced.

Your original reply to Alessandro argues 3 points he made in his post about Gridlife and jumping HPDE requirements for TT, but doesn't take into consideration that his experiences could actually be accurate in the region where he races

Yes, and I certainly wasn't trying to troll anyone, quite the opposite. I wasn't basing my points off personal experience though. I just shared what is defined in the Gridlife rules here (which are not region-specific): https://docs.google.com/document/d/...rzq49UbFWb5tvInWqzD5nYq6133NBhgrdZaI8-4Wr/pub

If Alessandro doesn't agree with those rules there's nothing I can do about that unfortunately, I only compete in Gridlife, I don't make the rules.

 

[Ludachris]

Thanks for being the first person to reply with a measured response providing some sensible perspective and good feedback.




Yes, and I certainly wasn't trying to troll anyone, quite the opposite. I wasn't basing my points off personal experience though. I just shared what is defined in the Gridlife rules here (which are not region-specific): https://docs.google.com/document/d/...rzq49UbFWb5tvInWqzD5nYq6133NBhgrdZaI8-4Wr/pub

If Alessandro doesn't agree with those rules there's nothing I can do about that unfortunately, I only compete in Gridlife, I don't make the rules.

I don't think Alessandro doesn't agree with the Gridlife rules, he just pointed out that his car (a fully gutted and caged track car), and the cars of some others who participate here, would not fit within Street GT, they'd fall under Street Modified or Track Modified, which potentially puts them in a class with high horsepower competitors. And in his region there are very few events. None of that conflicts with the information you shared, it's just something to consider for those who are in his same position.

Sometimes two people make separate points, which at first glance appear to conflict with each other, but actually don't. And the ensuing debate/argument ends up being all for naught. Hence my suggestion to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[bronco100]

I don't think Alessandro doesn't agree with the Gridlife rules, he just pointed out that his car (a fully gutted and caged track car), and the cars of some others who participate here, would not fit within Street GT, they'd fall under Street Modified or Track Modified, which potentially puts them in a class with high horsepower competitors. And in his region there are very few events. None of that conflicts with the information you shared, it's just something to consider for those who are in his same position.

Sometimes two people make separate points, which at first glance appear to conflict with each other, but actually don't. And the ensuing debate/argument ends up being all for naught. Hence my suggestion to give the benefit of the doubt.

Yep, 100% - I think he could still participate in those classes if he wants to though. It may require adding some more power or dropping weight off the car to be highly competitive. GLTC can be a great fit as well since that is power-to-weight based. That's alright if there's few events in his area as well - it's not unusual for competitors to travel.

And yes I may have misunderstood his original point, like I mentioned I didn't it find it to be comprehensible - I should have clarified what he meant before providing information.

 

[TMSBOSS]

I literally commented encouraging the dude to compete in Gridlife and offering some helpful information on the classing and was jumped on by like five people. I guess people think their "racing pedigree" gives them free rein to just absolutely troll new users here.

There is that word again, Troll. You would make me laugh, if you were not serious. You were spanked, warned, advised and at times given very good advice. All which you rejected preferring to resort to name calling. Nice…..nope, not really. Don’t think of it as character assassination. You are doing it to yourself.
You Just don’t get it, likely never will. That’s ok. Just not here. Respect is earned here. Demand all you want, there are several sites where demanding what you have not earnest is gotten by crying louder than every. I can send you a link or two if that would help.
Want to leave the trash behind and learn about going fast from folks who go fast, you are at the right place. Your call.

 

[bronco100]

Demand all you want, there are several sites where demanding what you have not earnest is gotten by crying louder than every.

Wow, this is so true. So deep and profound.

 

[TMSBOSS]

Wow, this is so true. So deep and profound.

Thought you might like it. You do not disappoint. You again failed to understand the point of this site. Appear to not care what we do here. That’s fine. Do you need the links mentioned above?
As pointed out by others, there are national champs at several levels amateur and pro on this site which freely offer advice, guidance and at times good humor. What do they all have in common? The sport and the desire to help folks who enjoy the sport. Folks never agree on how to improve or win. Most take advice and criticism well, most. Most learn, most. Some just can’t be helped. They usually leave Knowing they had all the answers before asking the question. Sad.

 

[steveespo]

Guys I'm going to jump in here and say let's freeze this conversation and stop the back and forth battling. The veteran people here should know better and the newer members should now know that attacks, obstinance and especially the word troll is not appreciated and not tolerated on this site. We have been together for 13 years now and have kept the forum alive and informative through cooperation and listening. If you have information that contradicts what another member is saying, cite the source, provide a link or photos to back up your position politely and factually. We don't make fun of grammar, as has been noted some of our members are International and English is not their first language. Senna didn't speak English perfectly but if he gave me driving tips and messed up a few words I would still listen respectfully. That being said if there are members with 4000 posts or 40 posts who continue to have petty arguments that have nothing to do with making Mustangs and their drivers safer and faster on track, they will be warned and ultimately booted of the forum. I give zero fucks who it is. Hopefully that is clear enough. Let's continue talking Track Mustangs Online.
Steve

 

[Egparson202]

Love it.

Anybody here time trialing with groups that run at VIR, Road Atlanta, Roebling Road or CMP? I’d be very interested in hearing about your experience.

 

[Ludachris]

Thought you might like it. You do not disappoint. You again failed to understand the point of this site. Appear to not care what we do here. That’s fine. Do you need the links mentioned above?
As pointed out by others, there are national champs at several levels amateur and pro on this site which freely offer advice, guidance and at times good humor. What do they all have in common? The sport and the desire to help folks who enjoy the sport. Folks never agree on how to improve or win. Most take advice and criticism well, most. Most learn, most. Some just can’t be helped. They usually leave Knowing they had all the answers before asking the question. Sad.

I think everyone has made their point now. Let's get the thread back on track. Maybe I'll go back and do some clean up.

Time Trials Groups... go.

 

[EF1]

Love it.

Anybody here time trialing with groups that run at VIR, Road Atlanta, Roebling Road or CMP? I’d be very interested in hearing about your experience.

Roebling, Road Atlanta, and CMP are all on the NASA SE region schedule. I have run HPDE at CMP and Road Atlanta with them. Have not made it down to Roebling.

 

[Nbjeeptj]

Love it.

Anybody here time trialing with groups that run at VIR, Road Atlanta, Roebling Road or CMP? I’d be very interested in hearing about your experience.

I run with NASA -SE, my experience with them is like I reported earlier in this thread. It’s a real good group and super competitive, but not in a bad way, we all help each other out and hang out together between sessions. The time difference on the last race at Robeling between 1st and 5th was low 1:19 to mid 1:20. None of the other TT groups are that close. There is only one other mustang that runs TT3 and he has not been to all of the events, but we were separated by 2 thousands of a second on the Saturday event. There are a pair of corvettes that have been to every event this year and they have been fun to play with.
Please do come join us we could use all the blue oval support we can get.
Let me know if you want to do it and I will send you the TT directors email so you can get things going.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Great info to hear as some of us wander over to other NASA Regions to play sometimes. I can give solid Kudos to the MidAmerica Region where I run, the Great Lakes Region and the Rocky Mountain Region. They all have solid competition and are well run organizations. I am sure AZBoss will say the same about the Arizona Region because I know quite a few racers who participate with that Region and it is quite active.

The best thing about most of the NASA Regions is that if you plan on running out of your area there are folks on TMO who likely run where you are considering and they will be more than willing to help you with little things like motels, restaurants, 93 Octane fuel or if 100+ is available , etc. Nice to know the competition is strong in SE, as I would love to get back to Road Atlanta some time in my lifetime.

 

[Egparson202]

I run with NASA -SE, my experience with them is like I reported earlier in this thread. It’s a real good group and super competitive, but not in a bad way, we all help each other out and hang out together between sessions. The time difference on the last race at Robeling between 1st and 5th was low 1:19 to mid 1:20. None of the other TT groups are that close. There is only one other mustang that runs TT3 and he has not been to all of the events, but we were separated by 2 thousands of a second on the Saturday event. There are a pair of corvettes that have been to every event this year and they have been fun to play with.
Please do come join us we could use all the blue oval support we can get.
Let me know if you want to do it and I will send you the TT directors email so you can get things going.

I need to take a look at their classing rules and see where my car fits. The mods I’ve made thus far didn’t take classing into consideration, so I may find myself in some pretty deep water. When I ran TT with them before the rules were different, but the drivers and equipment were formidable to be sure.

 

[67GTA]

I need to take a look at their classing rules and see where my car fits. The mods I’ve made thus far didn’t take classing into consideration, so I may find myself in some pretty deep water. When I ran TT with them before the rules were different, but the drivers and equipment were formidable to be sure.

That’s the great thing about NASA’s classing - since it’s weight (with driver) to power ratio based, the suspension and braking mods don’t impact your classing. Most likely your GT350 will class into TT3 if you’re close to stock weight and power, which it looks like based on your vehicle profile. I run with several different groups that try to class by mods, and inevitably I’ll be grouped with a C7 Corvette with less mods, which I would never be classed against on a weight/power basis.

This link will get you to their classing form tool. Once you know your weight and dyno HP, just plug those numbers into the form along with tire choice and it will confirm where you’re classed

https://form.jotform.us/83435707892164

One more note on the dyno - take the time to read and understand the Average HP calculation - this is key to optimizing your car to a class, and is part of how the GT350’s slot into the pointy end of the TT3 range.

 

[Nbjeeptj]

I think a gt350 would slide into TT3 with no problem. My car is a base GT but with headers and tune is making GT350 Hp so with weight being close to the same I would assume TT3 would be no issue.

 

[Nbjeeptj]

After looking at internet posted numbers for the base GT350 RWHP numbers it looks like they are higher than I thought. So you could still run it in TT3 but depending on tire choice you may need to add weight to the car.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Nbjeep hit the nail on the head. Pretty sure you will be able to run in TT3 if you choose to go with a 200TWR tire ( or the slow but long wearing Toyo RR Slick ) in all likelyhood. Now if you decide to jump to Purple Crack ( Hoosiers ) or used Pee-rellees or Michelin slicks prepare to run in TT2!

 

[mustanghammer]

In Midiv SCCA they have a unique TT rule set that is functions like the NASA Road Race and TT Rules I have read in the past (https://www.midiv.org/time-trials/) Its based on power to weight with a range of modifiers for aero, tires, etc. that you use to set your cars class. Its works better for car set up for road racing like my RX7. The SCCA National TT rule set is more geared to street cars in my opinion.

Not sure about the rest of the country, but all of the SCCA Majors Race weekend in Midiv include TT sessions. The do the same thing in Colorado at High Plains. I raced there in 2021 and there were way more TT cars than road race cars.

 

[Fair]

Wow what a thread so far! Here are my comments on NASA and SCCA TT, as I have run both many many times. I won't comment on GridLife as I haven't run with them, other than to say they are big in their region (Chicago is their home base) but not so much in others.



Experience so you know what I'm coming from - did my first HPDE in 1988, first TT in 1990, and have done 100s since.



I started running in NASA Time Trial in 2006 and have enjoyed that series and ruleset for many years. Have built 10 or 12 cars for myself around this series and dozens of cars for customers for same.

Forum post about NASA TT rules (2019): https://www.vorshlag.com/forums/for...-tt-rules-overview-200tw-texas-region-classes

It is hard to argue against their Power-to-Weight classing that they have adopted entirely since ~2016. Having run their "letter" classes before, this P-to-W basis is a lot more fair and balanced. The main thing they are missing is a good place for cars to be competitive with on 200TW tires (basically if you are on something that isn't a Hoosier, you are at a disadvantage).



We built up a lot of data running NASA TT in many cars, including this 2018 GT above where we ran 200TW on day 1 and Hoosiers on day 2 of a NASA weekend, for 2 seasons. Their current "calculated" bonuses for various street tires just don't work very well. After running NASA TT almost exclusively from 2006 to 2019, I started doing some SCCA TT events in 2018...



SCCA TT has a much more modern ruleset with "categories" and classes within each: Sport, Tuner, Max, and Unlimited. The first 3 categories all run 200TW tires, which keeps costs down (it really does) and makes for great competition, as there aren't classes with wildly different tires / power levels / aero or not.



Blowing $2000/weekend on sticker Hoosier A7s -vs- getting a season of competitive use out of a set of 200TW tires makes for a big difference in the tire budget. YUGE.

SCCA Time Trials - Rules Suggestions from Vorshlag - Vorshlag Motorsports Forum

www.vorshlag.com

SCCA TT is relatively new and not every region runs the National ruleset. I had my issues with those rules in 2018 (see above) but after some much needed changes (and I wrote in for rules changes - which most were adopted) and running it for a few seasons, I'm 100% on board with their rules mentality and it makes for an easier entry into Time Trial without needing a gutted race car with Hoosiers and aero to have a prayer of trophying.



Since 2021 all of our shop cars are built around SCCA TT rules, which would seem crazy to me circa 2018. But it just works, and their rules cross-over better to Grid Life and GTA, which isn't a bad thing. Will I run our cars in NASA TT? Sure, but they won't be competitive until we get them to the limit of the P-to-W ratios, add aero and Hoosiers, etc. Still love our NASA Texas folks, though, so I will run with them even if uncompetitive. But I will build around SCCA TT, because the rules work better with my way of thinking.

Hope this helps, and let's keep it Troll Free

 

[concretevol]

@flyhalf, Your contributions to our community have been valuable both from a technical and forum culture standpoint. Thank you. Keep up the good work.

Back on topic: I’ve begun considering re-entering the TT space myself. At present I’m thinking of a mixed schedule of HPDE, Track Days and TT to satisfy multiple needs. Some years back I had a very positive experience with NASA Southeast and NASA Mid-Atlantic. I think the power to weight based classing they use should make for a reasonably level playing field. That’s where I’m leaning.

Yes that's kindof where I am at as well as far as a schedule goes.