VW emissions scandal

[PhilTaylor]

ok, its starting to look like there might be more cheating manufacturers besides VW:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row

"rogue" employees or senior managers?
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/could-rogue-software-engineers-be-behind-vw-emissions-cheating-n441451

That exec is totally bullshitting. 3 senior execs are suspended, plus 10 minions. The characterization of these folks as "software engineers" is not admitting how high this corruption went. Based on standard investigative questioning ( means, motive, opportunity), it still looks like the 2 senior engineering managers and a senior brand manager ( Neusser,Hackenberg,Hatz) plus additional minions:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/vw-emissions-probe-zeroes-in-on-two-engineers-1444011602
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/06/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0RZ1ZI20151006

are the most likely reponsible. making an engineering change like that in a major product cannot be done without approval. something that doesn't go in the change log has to come from the management chain; and usually outside of normal protocol. "software engineers" dont own engine design. the ECU hardware and software that is used in engine control is still only one part of the engine engineering. these guys were heads of R&D at Audi (Hackenberg ) and Porshe ( Hatz ) and VW Brand Development ( Neusser ). Those are not "software engineer" jobs.

more worrisome, is there a 2nd defeat device?
http://www.smh.com.au/business/retail/vw-scandal-regulators-investigate-second-emissions-software-program-20151009-gk58ym.html

the net effect of this huge ethics lesson is that overall trust by people in the structure of society is decreased:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11923471/Volkswagen-emissions-scandal-has-shattered-trust-in-car-makers-say-MPs.html
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/could-diesel-vehicles-really-banned-10230153

everything I was taught in engineering school was to be ethical; so from that perspective this is a major bummer.

 

[VoodooBoss]

The story that keeps on giving.

 

[WinterSucks]

Universities will be using this as an example in business/engineering ethics for decades!

It is very possible that the CEO knew nothing of this and his lower managers/VPs/whoever decided among themselves that they were toast if they did not succeed and deliver a "clean" diesel engine. It was incredibly foolish for them to think this deceit could go on forever...

 

[302 Hi Pro]

In one of the breaking news articles on this, (mid-September-ish), there was mention of this small Engineering School in West Virginia, that was credited for finding this software and then working with the CARB to bring it to the Feds for action.

Since that article, I haven't seen any news on this school and who it was at this school who actually broke the Bosch/VW TDI Clean Diesel PCM code.

Anyone have any information on who will be credited with, and/or, who will actually go down in history with uncovering this scam?

@ Mr. Taylor, Esq.? Interested in your thoughts.

Thank you so much,

302 Hi Pro
DDS

 

[PhilTaylor]

Universities will be using this as an example in business/engineering ethics for decades!

It is very possible that the CEO knew nothing of this and his lower managers/VPs/whoever decided among themselves that they were toast if they did not succeed and deliver a "clean" diesel engine. It was incredibly foolish for them to think this deceit could go on forever...

This will be a Harvard Business School case-study, no doubt.

VPs are not "lower level" as the USA CEO stated to Congress, what a laugher.

Yeah not only are you on a path to eventually get caught, but you also stopped research that might have found a breakthrough and decided to cheat.

German engineering is gonna have a hard time living this down, especially if M-B is also doing this.

 

[four-walling]

VW has done other incredibly stupid things like purchasing Rolls Royce cars but neglecting to buy the name.

RR is now owned by BMW and VW was left at the altar with Bentley.

Not all that bad, but not RR.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/29/news/29iht-rolls.t.html

BMW Wrests Rolls-Royce Name Away From VW

LONDON— The long battle for control of Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Ltd., which appeared to have been won by Volkswagen AG last month, took an extraordinary turn Tuesday when VW announced it would be compelled to let part of the British luxury automaker, including the cherished Rolls-Royce trademark, go to its bitter rival BMW.

The deal was the result of complex three-way negotiations between the two German automakers and Rolls-Royce PLC, the aircraft-engine maker that owns rights to the famous double-R trademark and had supported BMW's failed bid for Rolls-Royce Motor Cars.

The deal will require four years of intricate cooperation between BMW and Volkswagen on production and distribution, before leaving BMW with control of the Rolls-Royce trademark and automobile models beginning in the year 2003. Volkswagen will be left with the Bentley models and the factory in Crewe, England, where both car lines are currently produced.

For Volkswagen, which had played down questions about the trademark dispute last month when it bought Rolls-Royce Motor Cars for £430 million ($712.7 million) from Vickers PLC, the settlement was an acknowledgment of an embarrassing and costly misjudgment.

"I would have preferred to keep both brands," said Ferdinand Piech, the ambitious chairman who has sought to extend Volkswagen's dominance from small cars like the Golf to the top of the luxury ladder. If he had sorted out the trademark and parts issues earlier, "the price would have been much lower than Volkswagen finally paid," he acknowledged.

 

[PhilTaylor]

In one of the breaking news articles on this, (mid-September-ish), there was mention of this small Engineering School in West Virginia, that was credited for finding this software and then working with the CARB to bring it to the Feds for action.

Since that article, I haven't seen any news on this school and who it was at this school who actually broke the Bosch/VW TDI Clean Diesel PCM code.

Anyone have any information on who will be credited with, and/or, who will actually go down in history with uncovering this scam?

@ Mr. Taylor, Esq.? Interested in your thoughts.

Thank you so much,

302 Hi Pro
DDS

NPR:
http://www.scpr.org/programs/airtalk/2015/09/23/44582/west-virginia-engineer-shares-how-team-discovered/
http://www.npr.org/2015/09/24/443053672/how-a-little-lab-in-west-virginia-caught-volkswagens-big-cheat

The Atlantic:
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/this-scientific-testing-facility-started-the-volkswagen-scandal

Autonews:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20150923/OEM11/150929933/west-virginia-engineer-presented-vw-emissions-findings-a-year-ago

So Professor Carder and team, described as "Carder's team -- a research professor, two graduate students, a faculty member and himself".

the NPR article that goes with the audio interview mentions "WVU research assistant professor Arvind Thiruvengadam ".

Citylab:
http://www.citylab.com/crime/2015/09/the-study-that-brought-down-volkswagen/407149/

links to the actual 117-page study:
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

which lists "Dr. Gregory J. Thompson (Principal Investigator)" and "Co-Principal Investigators Daniel K. Carder, Marc C. Besch, Arvind Thiruvengadam, Hemanth K. Kappanna Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines & Emissions Dept. of Mechanical & Aerospace Engineering West Virginia University"

so there is the team and the entire study. it is pretty amazing. the list of tables and figures alone is very thorough. the entire study reports the data and avoids conclusions. good experimental and scientific method.

the most it does is, obliquely, point out that emissions testing provides a completely different set of test results, as in ( Part 5"Conclusions, paragraph 2, page 106 )
"Interestingly, NOx emissions factors for Vehicles A and B were below the US-EPA Tier2Bin5 standard for the weighted average over the FTP-75 cycle during chassis dynamometer testing at CARB’s El Monte facility, with 0.022g/km ±0.006g/km (±1σ, 2 repeats) and 0.016g/km ±0.002g/km (±1σ, 3 repeats), respectively. "

it was the ask to VW to explain the road result didn't agree with the static testing result that led to the disclosure of the defeat device.

 

[PhilTaylor]

Rut-ro Scooby-do, the rabbit hole goes deeper.

Not accused of defeat device use yet, but 6 more brands fail NOX levels in real world tests:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-range-of-cars-emit-more-pollution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show

 

[WinterSucks]

At this point I am feeling like a witch hunt is starting. Too many people looking for their 5 minutes of attention. The thing that these studies forget is that people suck at driving. Of course real world tests are going to put out more pollution... Even those who are "environmentally conscious" driving around in Prius' gun it at green lights and pass me at 80 on the highway then sue Toyota because they don't get the promised fuel economy...seriously??? If they are basing the "real world" numbers on those drivers then any car is in trouble if you stick a sensor up the tailpipe.

 

[PhilTaylor]

At this point I am feeling like a witch hunt is starting. Too many people looking for their 5 minutes of attention. The thing that these studies forget is that people suck at driving. Of course real world tests are going to put out more pollution... Even those who are "environmentally conscious" driving around in Prius' gun it at green lights and pass me at 80 on the highway then sue Toyota because they don't get the promised fuel economy...seriously??? If they are basing the "real world" numbers on those drivers then any car is in trouble if you stick a sensor up the tailpipe.

Agreed real world driving is different than the static emissions test "engine on", can't really call it driving.

But there is a huge difference between a product that labors/pollutes up a hill (BMW), and the rest that pollutes basically all the time.

We need to reward and celebrate the good, and avoid and label the bad.

Not just throw our arms up and label it impossible/inevitable.

I believe competent, appropriately rewarded engineers can find a way.

 

[302 Hi Pro]

Phil,

I think your spot on with your above post.

I'm also thinking of nominating you as our BMO Attorney General!

Thanks for keeping us updated on this important automotive industry news story.

Regards,
Dave
302 Hi Pro

 

[WinterSucks]

I definitely agree it isn't an impossible engineering task. I just feel like there is bound to be some sensationalized stories. And just because it is a university or "scientist" doing tests does not make the testing conditions relevant. The other issue is that they could very well pass the emissions testing without any cheats just because the test parameters are crap and should be revised.

 

[PhilTaylor]

Winterkorn quits Porsche now, all the way out:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-17/vw-ex-ceo-winterkorn-quits-porsche-post-after-emissions-scandal

vw hires integrity chief:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/10/16/volkswagen-hires-christine-hohmann-dennhardt-integrity-legal-affairs-emissions/74044464/

German government rejects "voluntary" recall and orders compulsory recall of 2.4m VAG diesel autos, 8.5m across EU:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/15/vw-scandal-german-authorities-reject-voluntary-recall

criminal probe, 10-30?:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34547229

this matches my experience as a relatively senior software guy on several projects. those of us who "ran the war room" and the "build server" could have subverted the system; which was a small subset of the team. even most engineers did not understand the build system and no one wanted to volunteer for the bug meetings, lol.

A group inside VAG engine teams, who had responsibility for 3 key components: engine control software engineering, engine emissions systems engineering, and engine/emissions QA -> they could have done this. And kept it quiet. They had means ( skills, control via hierarchy ), motive ( profit and promotion ) and opportunity ( access ). 3-10 per team, 9-30 total plus a couple "execs" ( the 3 R &D heads already canned ) and there you have it.

recall letters in at least 1 geo start:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/vw-emissions-scandal-volkswagen-group-begins-sending-recall-letters-uk-drivers-1523899

anti-diesel sentiment builds in the EU:
http://www.ibtimes.com/anti-diesel-sentiment-rising-europe-wake-vw-emissions-scandal-2142299

Germans in denial:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/15/volkswagen-emissions-germany-regulations-idUSL8N12E2ER20151015

 

[302 Hi Pro]

Vhat Diesel?

 

[Fat Boss]

Thanks for your opinion, but I prefer "innocent until proven guilty" over painting with a broad brush and cynicism.

And I will avoid conspiracy theories too while I am at it, lol. Just don't get me started on the Sumerians....

I was thinking the same thing, Phil. There's a LOT of uninformed statements in this thread. Thanks for actually making an effort to keeping the thread up to date, as well as providing links to your sources.

 

[PhilTaylor]

rut-ro part 2, offices raided in France and Italy now in addition to Germany:
http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/18/news/companies/volkswagen-office-search/index.html

pictoral representation, may be basic bit does list the cars affected:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/international/vw-diesel-emissions-scandal-explained.html?_r=0

apologist article by New Yorker, written by a "money guy":
http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/an-engineering-theory-of-the-volkswagen-scandal

how can a "money guy" have an engineering theory? how can a reputable magazine publish such a story? where is the "I call BS" emoticon?

 

[Fat Boss]

apologist article by New Yorker, written by a "money guy":
http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/an-engineering-theory-of-the-volkswagen-scandal

how can a "money guy" have an engineering theory? how can a reputable magazine publish such a story? where is the "I call BS" emoticon?

I read it and there's a whole lot of if's, may well have's, and might's in there. FWIW, I work in a a fairly large engineering company and it's all about on wafer performance. When we test a new product, on wafer performance gets disseminated pretty quickly- good or bad. The same is true about one of VW's ultimate deliverables. If they were polluting at 40x the "bar" then people knew. For sure people knew.

 

[Silver LS]

I am hearing the words buy back.

 

[PhilTaylor]

2 more execs suspended, 5 total:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/10/21/business/volkswagen-suspends-5th-executive-in-emissions-scandal.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

Legal push for buyback?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-legal-push-to-make-vw-buy-back-its-diesels/
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-volkswagen-diesel-buyback-lawsuit-20151012-story.html

So yes the bb word is starting to be heard. CARB is tougher. So CA consumers might have a case. Not good for VAG.

 

[WinterSucks]

I might put in an automatic purchase for the stock at $40 and go get some more popcorn!