VW emissions scandal

[WinterSucks]

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/22/news/vw-recall-diesel/

All I have to say is HOLY CRAP! If VW does not line pockets the way GM does they are in real trouble!

 

[PhilTaylor]

Volkswagen

What is up in Germany?

11 million cars sold with intentional defeat features?
http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/22/news/vw-recall-diesel/index.html

CEO replaced?
http://jalopnik.com/vw-ceo-martin-wintekorn-being-replaced-by-matthias-muel-1732285443

"Clean Diesel" page taken down?
http://www.vw.com/features/clean-diesel/
https://web.archive.org/web/20150816221300/http://www.vw.com/features/clean-diesel/

I don't even know where to start with this one, its such an epic scale of cheating I wonder if the company shouldn't be broken apart.

 

[VoodooBoss]

Re: Volkswagen

Yea this in mind boggling to think about. I have a friend with an A3 diesel and he's not sure what to do with the car.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Re: Volkswagen

Whooooops

 

[four-walling]

Re: Volkswagen

I would like to think my Boss passes EPA regulations, but not so sure anymore.

It would be disingenuous to think VW is the only violator.

Waiting for the next automaker to come forward and fess up to gaming their cars.

The Pope's in town, good time to confess.

 

[WinterSucks]

Re: Volkswagen

I would like to think my Boss passes EPA regulations, but not so sure anymore.

It would be disingenuous to think VW is the only violator.

Waiting for the next automaker to come forward and fess up to gaming their cars.

The Pope's in town, good time to confess.

I would not be worried about the Boss, this story is specific to diesel engines. The increase in pollution level according to one article on cnn was up to 40x when the VW thinks it is on the road. 40x!!! I think it would be hard to make a gas engine change that much unless you bypass the catalytic converters. Diesel will always be dirtier.

 

[PhilTaylor]

Re: Volkswagen

I would not be worried about the Boss, this story is specific to diesel engines. The increase in pollution level according to one article on cnn was up to 40x when the VW thinks it is on the road. 40x!!! I think it would be hard to make a gas engine change that much unless you bypass the catalytic converters. Diesel will always be dirtier.

it certainly does feel "diesel-specific".

my biggest concern, from a corporate corruption standpoint, is the deviousness has hopped from VW to Audi.

its not division specific. in most corporate environments, that means the decision ( the dirty deed; whatever you want to call it ) usually needs to go "up" the corporate hierarchy from VW to "central" to then move "over" to Audi. so upper management has a (much) harder time claiming no knowledge.

certainly it proves there is no "chinese wall" around decision making and (bad) technology sharing between divisions there...

jail time for execs and chief engineers is certainly warranted. a corporate breakup is not an unreasonable discussion to have, given the scale of this law-breaking. execs barred from holding exec positions in the auto-industry is also entirely warranted.

this is a huge breach of trust, make no mistake. it makes it very hard to make the case those involved can be trusted to abide the law.

and there is no telling how many health issues are caused by 11 million vehicles polluting 40x beyond the limits.

 

[302 Hi Pro]

Yes this is going to be an Epic event in VW land. Can you imagine the level of Corporate CYA actions going on over there now?

Congratulations to CARB who discovered the fraudulent PCM code that would Enable diesel emissions controls during an emission test, then Disable the diesel emission controls while driving.

This is going to be expensive, very expensive for both VW and the Share Holders.

Dave
302 HP

 

[TMSBOSS]

$18 billion fine!!! That will make a few interest payments for the US.

 

[302 Hi Pro]

According to France 24 who reviewed emissions testing procedures between Europe and the United States, VW would have never been caught in Europe as all vehicle manufactures have designated emissions test mules. For real world testing and verification, selected customers are paid by the manufacturers and testing on those cars is only performed by the manufacturer in the manufacturers test labs. No independent government agency testing at all! It was the honor system, which explains why the VW CEO was so concerned about breaking the public "trust" in his apology announcement last week in Europe.

France 24 was very complementary of the sophisticated emissions testing procedures in the US. The State of California Air Research Board discovered the software issue and reported it to the Feds, (EPA).

They are in damage control "spin" now and the news report suggested the issue might be a result of older practices that were acceptable and enacted in the 70's, however an American expert called it "falsification" and urged other nations to step up and commit the resources for better compliance testing.

An on-screen subtitle stated "VW to reject CEO regisnation offer".

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Dave
302 HP

 

[WinterSucks]

I bet there are quite a few empty offices in the software department right now, cause that is where the crap will start and this crap is going uphill from there! It is possible that the top did not know about it, they rarely know anything about technical details, they just manage and occupy space while absorbing most of the profit.

18 Billion for fines, but then what happens after the recall and reprogramming of all those vehicles?? There will probably be a significant fuel economy AND performance hit. There will definitely be a HUGE consumer lawsuit. I bet there are dozens of law firms frantically working on that already. I think VW stock is going down to the $50 range, this won't be over for years.

Here is a great article about why VW possible did this. Much more technical then other articles so far. EDIT: This article explains why we should not be worried about our gas engines. But I bet all Chevy/Ford/Crapstler diesels will be coming under extra scrutiny also.
http://www.vox.com/2015/9/21/9365667/volkswagen-clean-diesel-recall-passenger-cars

 

[Silver LS]

All corporations lie, cheat and steal. Money is the bottom line!

 

[four-walling]

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/23/vw-had-previous-run-in-over-defeat-devices.html

VW had previous run-in over 'defeat devices'

Volkswagen has had a previous run-in with U.S. authorities for selling vehicles that used so-called "defeat devices" to disable pollution-control systems in four models of its vehicles produced in 1973.

News reports archived by the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety show the German automaker, then known as Volkswagenwerk AG, and its American subsidiary, Volkswagen of America, paid a $120,000 fine in March 1974 to settle a complaint filed by the Environmental Protection Agency over the use of so-called "defeat devices" that disabled certain pollution-control systems. The complaint said the use of the devices violated the U.S. Clean Air Act.

More from NBC News:
VW sets aside $7.2 billion to pay for cheating scandal
Question everything: Scandals erode trust in auto industry
Q&A on Volkswagen's emissions cheating scandal

According to a March 13, 1974, account published in the Wall Street Journal, the complaint stated that VW didn't report to U.S. regulators that it had included temperature-sensing devices on certain models of "bus-like panel trucks, station wagons, combination vehicles and campmobiles" that disabled systems that controlled emissions and the flow of fuel and oxygen to the carburetor at low temperatures.

The case is similar to an EPA complaint against VW filed last week, in which Volkswagen is accused of surreptitiously equipping diesel vehicles with software designed to detect when they were undergoing emissions testing. During that time, the device turned on full emissions control systems. After the test was over, the controls were turned off, allowing the cars to pollute up to 40 times the allowable levels, according to the complaint, which was accompanied by an order to recall nearly 500,000 diesel vehicles sold in the U.S.

On Tuesday, VW said it is setting aside more than $7.2 billion to cover the anticipated cost of resolving its diesel emissions cheating scandal.

In settling the 1973 complaint, VW admitted to no wrongdoing. And an unidentified spokesman told the Journal that the complaint resulted from a reporting violation, not the use of the devices themselves.

"They contended only that we didn't describe them (the devices) adequately in our reports," the newspaper quoted the spokesman as saying. He added that the automaker agreed to pay the civil penalty to settle the EPA complaint "because our relations with the EPA are too important to permit us to become involved in an adversary proceeding on a matter of questionable significance."

The EPA, in a press release the previous year, said Volkswagen did not respond to a letter it sent to automakers on July 12, 1972, informing them that "defeat devices" included in 1973 models needed to be reported as part of the agency's certification process. It said that only after VW reported the use of such devices in 1974 models and was denied certification did the automaker acknowledged it had sold approximately 25,000 1973 models equipped with the defeat devices.
In another incident found by the Center for Auto Safety, Volkswagen of America, Inc. agreed to pay $1.1 million in June 2005 to resolve a previous "failure to promptly notify EPA and to correct a defective oxygen sensor affecting at least 329,000 of their 1999, 2000 and 2001 Golfs, Jettas, and New Beetles," as reported at the time in an EPA press release.

According to the press release, the amount VWoA agreed to pay was "the largest civil penalty to date for this type of violation" at the time.

The violations resulted from VWoA's not "promptly" reporting and fixing defective oxygen sensors in some of its models, which may have resulted in the release of significant pollutants from affected vehicles, according to the release.

In addition to the current EPA complaint, VW is being investigated by the U.S. Justice Department, the California Air Resources Board and German authorities.
Noting that VW had promised to comply with the Clean Air Act after settling the 1973 complaint, Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, said the previous incidents show VW is a "recidivist emission control violator using defeat devices to turn off emission controls used only in emission testing."

"So much for promises to obey the law," he said in a statement. "The only way to change auto company behavior is to put the responsible executives in jail. After a flagrant pattern across the auto industry of violating U.S. health and safety laws, the Center for Auto Safety calls on the Justice Department to move to put the responsible VW executives behind bars."

VW did not respond to requests for comment.

 

[Fomoco302]

Is the timing right to buy some VW stock? Just askin??

 

[four-walling]

Is the timing right to buy some VW stock? Just askin??

doubt it-an investigation is now being opened regarding more Audi and now Porsche models.

Do you think VW's Lamborghini models meet all emissions requirements?

I wouldn't bet on it.

I think gasoline powered cars will come under intense scrutiny-no manufacturer is immune.

The investigation is far from over.

 

[VoodooBoss]

Is the timing right to buy some VW stock? Just askin??

No way. This isn't close to being over for VW.

 

[PhilTaylor]

CEO resigns:
http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/09/volkswagen-ceo-resigns-amid-emissions-test-cheating-scandal/

Ethics in Engineering issues discussed:
http://hackaday.com/2015/09/23/ethics-in-engineering-volkswagens-diesel-fiasco/

"In terms of automotive scandals, this is bigger than Unsafe at Any Speed. This is a bigger scandal than the Ford Pinto’s proclivity to explode. This is engineering history in the making, and an enormously teachable moment for ethics in engineering."

yeah this isn't over by a long-shot:
http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/09/vws-dirty-mission-wheres-the-beginning-and-wheres-the-end/

couple this discovery with the previously posted history of this bad behavior from VW in the 70s, and you have a serial abuser of the law. statements are that the German government wont let VW die, but who is going to buy a '14, '15, or '16 now? the market may dictate here.

I'd short VW stock before I would buy it.

I wonder if they will bring back Piech?

 

[Silver LS]

Will this turn into buy backs?

 

[four-walling]

Will this turn into buy backs?

An educated guess says the cars will be fixed and a maybe a cash settlement to owners, if performance and fuel economy suffered.

Once a fix is in place, CA law requires the recall to be completed before the vehicle can have its registration renewed.

 

[Grant 302]

I'd short VW stock before I would buy it.

This. I forgot to start a post about it when the news broke.

I think the only winners here will be Laywers, the competition, and those who went short.