TeeLew said:

I don't think we watched the same lap.

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Not taking away from the time or driver at all! But I got the impression of a relaxed time instead of one that's on the ragged edge (I could be totally wrong..). Maybe its just because the driver is fantastic?

Mad Hatter said:

Not taking away from the time or driver at all! But I got the impression of a relaxed time instead of one that's on the ragged edge (I could be totally wrong..). Maybe its just because the driver is fantastic?

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That's the difference between someone who is fast and actual race driver. Proper race drivers don't 'look' like they're trying. And, ya, Dirk is pretty quick. You can tell he's going for it by how much road he's using and the fact that the car isn't being driven to exit curb, it's going there on it's own. A ragged lap wouldn't have been as quick.

Just watched the Porsche lap time.... yee gads... Different beast, a lot less top speed, but scary fast through the curvy bits.

Mad Hatter said:

Just watched the Porsche lap time.... yee gads... Different beast, a lot less top speed, but scary fast through the curvy bits.

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That was Jorg throwing a big one down.

The GTD has two fundamental disadvantages. The first is its weight. It's at least 500# overweight. The other thing, which is just as important, and not fixable, is weight distribution. I've rattled on about this in the past as far as moving the battery back and stuff like that, but this is the entire car architecture. You're just not going to compete with a mid/rear engine car without BoP. This is literally why BoP exists. Just be happy to be the fastest front-engine GT car. I don't think the Merc or the Aston have a shot at touching them. I can't think of anything else that would challenge.

I bet if they built a nasty Eco with about 600HP/550 lbft (200# lighter right away and all off the nose) and then took advantage of the lower engine power to take weight out of everything else, they'd probably run a quicker 'Ring time. Power is always great to have, but there are definitely diminishing returns in terms of lap time.


Edit: But it would sound like crap...

TeeLew said:

Just be happy to be the fastest front-engine GT car. I don't think the Merc or the Aston have a shot at touching them. I can't think of anything else that would challenge..

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AMG GT Black Series at 6:48.04 is still the fastest front-engine GT car at the Ring. But that AMG is a beast to be fair and a lot lighter than the GTD. Here is the official Top 10 of the fastest cars on the Ring:

TOP 10 FASTEST PRODUCTION CARS AT THE NÜRBURGRING​

1. Mercedes AMG ONE | 6:29.09 minutes | 20,832 km
2. Porsche GT2 RS MR 991.2 | 6:43.30 minutes | 20,832 km
3. Mercedes AMG GT Black Series | 6:48.04 minutes | 20,832 km
4. Porsche GT3 RS 992 | 6:49.32 minutes | 20,832 km
5. Lamborghini Aventador LP 770-4 SVJ | 6:49.42 minutes | 20,832 km
6. Porsche GT2 RS MR 991.2 | 6:51.45 minutes | 20,832 km
7. Ford Mustang GTD | 6:52.07 minutes | 20,832 km
8. Radical SR8 LM | 6:52.70 minutes | 20,832 km
9. Porsche GT3 992.2 | 6:56.29 minutes | 20,832 km
10. Lamborghini Huracan LP 640-4 Performante | 6:56.45 minutes | 20,832 km

Ether way the Mustang GTD is in a very elite group.

Honestly, though, what engine should they put in the car to make it the fastest? I think it's already past the point of diminishing returns for power/weight. Maybe they could do a 5.5-6.0L N/A Coyote? Do a light-weight version if you can. The Porsche makes better than 500 HP out of 4 liters. Ford should be able to get 600 or so without too much trouble.

Mag gearbox case & carbon subframes would be a good start.

I'm not quite sure how they made the damned thing so heavy when they were designing all new stuff in the first place.

TeeLew said:

That was Jorg throwing a big one down.

The GTD has two fundamental disadvantages. The first is its weight. It's at least 500# overweight. The other thing, which is just as important, and not fixable, is weight distribution. I've rattled on about this in the past as far as moving the battery back and stuff like that, but this is the entire car architecture. You're just not going to compete with a mid/rear engine car without BoP. This is literally why BoP exists. Just be happy to be the fastest front-engine GT car. I don't think the Merc or the Aston have a shot at touching them. I can't think of anything else that would challenge.

I bet if they built a nasty Eco with about 600HP/550 lbft (200# lighter right away and all off the nose) and then took advantage of the lower engine power to take weight out of everything else, they'd probably run a quicker 'Ring time. Power is always great to have, but there are definitely diminishing returns in terms of lap time.


Edit: But it would sound like crap...

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In general I would agree with all you said... BUT... I guess we are a little spoilt by the great success of Ford. Mustangs for me have always been about the underdog that punches way above its category. I love that fact that my 2012 stick axle Boss can run and beat Cayman GT4 cars costing 3x more. In the case of the GTD, it costs the same as the Mercedes AMG GT Black but the Mercedes is clearly a faster, lighter car (with the engine upfront to boot), and I feel some how disappointed that Ford could not pull it off. Its still a great car...

TeeLew said:

Honestly, though, what engine should they put in the car to make it the fastest? I think it's already past the point of diminishing returns for power/weight. Maybe they could do a 5.5-6.0L N/A Coyote? Do a light-weight version if you can. The Porsche makes better than 500 HP out of 4 liters. Ford should be able to get 600 or so without too much trouble.

Mag gearbox case & carbon subframes would be a good start.

I'm not quite sure how they made the damned thing so heavy when they were designing all new stuff in the first place.

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Due to crash safety standards they were left with the regular Mustang "shell" including the doors. Sure they were able to skin the roof and quarter panels in carbon fiber as well as the bumpers, front fenders, trunk, and hood. The problem is that most of those parts were already either thin sheetmetal, aluminum, or plastic to begin with so you're talking probably less than 50lbs saved across it all. Then you throw in the torque tube to the new rear transaxle in place of a carbon fiber driveshaft and you've probably lost any weight you saved with the body. The extra hydraulic system to operate the active aero and the dual mode suspension is an addition over the weight of a GT500 and all things considered, they'd have been lucky to be near what the GT500 CFTP weighed, much less delivering weights savings.

Sadly the level of engineering involved to deliver a significant reduction in weight was probably too much for the bean counters to accept given that the whole deal will probably still lose them money on every car being built at $400k or whatever inflation has driven the pricing to at this point.

If that's the case, then don't expect to get around the racetrack faster than the guys who did their homework.

I look at some of the silly stuff done on our cars which could have been done better and shake my head. You'd think if you get a real shot at it...

mavisky said:

Due to crash safety standards they were left with the regular Mustang "shell" including the doors. Sure they were able to skin the roof and quarter panels in carbon fiber as well as the bumpers, front fenders, trunk, and hood. The problem is that most of those parts were already either thin sheetmetal, aluminum, or plastic to begin with so you're talking probably less than 50lbs saved across it all. Then you throw in the torque tube to the new rear transaxle in place of a carbon fiber driveshaft and you've probably lost any weight you saved with the body. The extra hydraulic system to operate the active aero and the dual mode suspension is an addition over the weight of a GT500 and all things considered, they'd have been lucky to be near what the GT500 CFTP weighed, much less delivering weights savings.

Sadly the level of engineering involved to deliver a significant reduction in weight was probably too much for the bean counters to accept given that the whole deal will probably still lose them money on every car being built at $400k or whatever inflation has driven the pricing to at this point.

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For me the issue is the fact that the GT3 RS is 70% aluminium chassis while the Mustang uses American steel.

bnight said:

For me the issue is the fact that the GT3 RS is 70% aluminium chassis while the Mustang uses American steel.

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The 997 GT3 wasn't excessively heavy and it was the last steel Porsche '911'. Honestly, it's a much, much better car than the 991 that followed and even the 992 really isn't as good. It's faster, but it's not as good to drive. Many people agree that the 997's are a high-water mark for Porsche Cup cars. I'll agree that there will be a weight penalty with steel over AL, but it's relatively small, because the main requirement is stiffness, not strength. You end up using thicker AL sections, so the weight loss isn't as big as we'd want it to be, maybe 10-20% for the tub, which can't be more than 50 Kg. The cage is always going to be steel.

Whatever penalty exist because of the steel tub, I'll accept, but I bet there's room for optimization. The rest of the car needs a fine-toothed comb. Our rear subframe weight could be cut in 1/2, but the GTD has a completely different arrangement. They wouldn't be using it. There would have been a lot of opportunity to lighten things.

Thought you guys might enjoy this.
Two laps with the GT3 Mustang at NLS Nurburgring race

Mike_FL said:

Thought you guys might enjoy this.
Two laps with the GT3 Mustang at NLS Nurburgring race

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Cool to see that track in that car, but, man, that guy is not good. It looks like their BoP sucks as well. All of the cars that he's racing against are Cup cars. They aren't GT3's. I thought he was going to write the car off getting by the second guy.

That car does not look great compared with other GT3 cars from the in-car.

TeeLew said:

Cool to see that track in that car, but, man, that guy is not good. It looks like their BoP sucks as well. All of the cars that he's racing against are Cup cars. They aren't GT3's. I thought he was going to write the car off getting by the second guy.

That car does not look great compared with other GT3 cars from the in-car.

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This is the NLS series so drivers are like junior drivers.


Still not a bad record.

It's just a gentleman driver; I'm well acquainted. Did your see when he damn-near smoked the car getting by that 2nd Cup car?

TeeLew said:

It's just a gentleman driver; I'm well acquainted. Did your see when he damn-near smoked the car getting by that 2nd Cup car?

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Yes but he had the talent to catch that slide anyway

The GTD just lapped the Nurburgring in 6.40, seriously impressive time

And the Ford GT MKIV ran a 6.15 which is incredible

When I worked for Phoenix Andrew was driving the Boss, the competition was a Porsche and a BMW, it was fun watching the difference in the 3 cars on the track.

Mike_FL said:

The GTD just lapped the Nurburgring in 6.40, seriously impressive time

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Correction this is a GTD Competition.
A lot of things are changed like supercharger, aero and most importantly tires as the car looks like it's on full slick tires.