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S197 2014 Mustang GT Track Pack Build Thread Profile - S197 Mustangs

148
252
Utah
Cortex offers both 850# and 1000# setups. I know some very fast cars with both. I’m at 1000# and the car feels very soft to me but the front end has always been so good I have resisted springing it up. So I am considering a few different routes. The new cambered rear end threw a wild card into the setup and I have to re evaluate how best to handle the new developments. (Pun intended)
Over the winter, in addition to straightening the rear axle as previously discussed, I am working on the 850# setup to try to get more mechanical grip into the car using the Toyo RR. Should have a chance to drive it about March 1. After I get some aero, I will likely step back up to the stiffer rates.
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
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I would fiddle with tire pressures a bit more before I started switching all kinds of spring rates. I found on mine , at Topeka, because the track is so smooth, that I could drop the pressure 2-3 pounds ( cold ) from what I was instructed by a couple of friends with similar set-ups. Track surfaces, temperature, air pressure, car weight, etc. can all have an effect on how a tire works and it is not always dramatic changes in the suspension that is needed. Work with those concepts first to get a feel of the Toyos, imho. Then chat more with Fabman , he is relatively close and you may even meet each other at an event. I am running a dual remote MCS shock/suspension set up and the springs rates that seem optimal from MCS, Vorshlag and my old Motorsports director are somewhat softer. Fabman is a Guru on your set up , so his words will be key to your eventual set up, just drive the machine more and get a feel for it first, imho.


The Toyos right now are priced well, they wear like iron, I am just voicing my opinion that I prefer the Hoosiers for W2W.
 
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27
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W2W Racing
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Salt Lake City, UT
I would fiddle with tire pressures a bit more before I started switching all kinds of spring rates. I found on mine , at Topeka, because the track is so smooth, that I could drop the pressure 2-3 pounds ( cold ) from what I was instructed by a couple of friends with similar set-ups. Track surfaces, temperature, air pressure, car weight, etc. can all have an effect on how a tire works and it is not always dramatic changes in the suspension that is needed. Work with those concepts first to get a feel of the Toyos, imho. Then chat more with Fabman , he is relatively close and you may even meet each other at an event. I am running a dual remote MCS shock/suspension set up and the springs rates that seem optimal from MCS, Vorshlag and my old Motorsports director are somewhat softer. Fabman is a Guru on your set up , so his words will be key to your eventual set up, just drive the machine more and get a feel for it first, imho.


The Toyos right now are priced well, they wear like iron, I am just voicing my opinion that I prefer the Hoosiers for W2W.
Bill,
I think Rod's decision on Toyo RR's has somewhat to do with the new NASA rules that give the Toyo a 1.6 lb/HP advantage over the Hoosiers. The Hoosier's are definitely faster but from NASA's previous 0.6 lb/HP advantage for Toyo's to 1.6 lb/HP probably gives the Toyo an advantage in class. I will probably switch from Hoosiers to Toyo's in my NASA races because of this major advantage. Will do some testing between the two in March to make a final decision. J.R.
 
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Bill Pemberton

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That will make a huge difference, because I was thinking it was still set at .The new rules ( 1.6 HP advantage to Toyo Tires ) will give many drivers a possibility to have more Class options , etc. Heck, add a little weight and drop a small amount of HP and the Boss S could be in ST3----Wow!

That is what I love about this Forum, since things are constantly changing in the racing/time trial/autocross World there is a good chance someone will pop up the new info for all to see. I definitely missed this so thanks consult.
 
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148
252
Utah
JR is correct in that my choice of tire is because of the NASA rules. Conveniently the Toyo costs less than others. Last year I started the year off in TT3 in my 3V car which classed at the bottom of TT3. The new car came in about 20 HP higher than I anticipated (80 more than the 3V) and at the same weight I needed the Toyo RR +.6 and the BTM Aero +.4 to remain in class.

In 2022 my choice is to go with one of the +1 tires in the list and remain at the current weight with aero, or run the Toyo RR from the +1.6 list, loose weight (up to 150 lbs) and run aero. As mentioned the Toyo RR is cost effective compared to the other tires in the list. I always hedge a bit to say it is "better" than the other tires (Hoosier isn't in the list) because frankly I am not quite fast enough to be able to confidently voice that opinion. Everything works well when I am slower! No doubt however that the Hoosier is just the best DOT tire. JR is fast enough that I will be asking how the tire test went and see if in his opinion the Toyo RR is worth the +1.6.

I do look forward to the day that my car is setup well, I am faster as a driver, and the Toyo RR is holding me back. Then I may have a decision to make.
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
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Heh, I will admit to not noticing that rule change and that is huge. I already figured and I could stay in my Class, but with just a very few changes ( and I have all the parts ) I am right in ST3 -------thanks guys!! Will admit the cost of racing will be much less as the Toyos are two fold -- less money and last longer.
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
FWIW, I would seek help from someone familiar with your Penskes FIRST. CorteX directly or somebody who is running the same ones.
You made a good buy, IMO, with this setup…just gotta work those knobs that you paid for.
Your suspension overall has a lot of adjustments to consider and dial in. But those dampers and how you set them will be key in extracting the maximum grip for whatever you do geometry or rate wise.
I’ve said many times before that people underestimate the value of spending for good dampers. Learning to tune them is also required.
 
148
252
Utah
FWIW, I would seek help from someone familiar with your Penskes FIRST. CorteX directly or somebody who is running the same ones.
You made a good buy, IMO, with this setup…just gotta work those knobs that you paid for.
Your suspension overall has a lot of adjustments to consider and dial in. But those dampers and how you set them will be key in extracting the maximum grip for whatever you do geometry or rate wise.
I’ve said many times before that people underestimate the value of spending for good dampers. Learning to tune them is also required.
I am a believer for sure and think you are absolutely right. I have been working the car as I will document in this thread. If it has taught me one thing so far it is that with so much adjustment, I have to take it slow, one thing at a time and get advice along the way. I am excited for the potential that is in this car, it just is going to take a while to get it right, not to mention improve as a driver to meet the capabilities of the car. Good thing is I have time and really enjoy the setup part of it so even though I make mistakes in setup, I am learning from them.

Cortex has given me some basic setup info, but since I bought it second hand, they are understandably a little tight lipped. I just sent the fronts in for a rebuild (leaky seals, an affect of sitting for three years) to Performance Shock at Sonoma and they are going to give me some basic settings when they are done rebuilding the dampers. Then I have Fabman and Don running the same setup that have been very helpful as well. Just trying not to wear them out with questions!
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
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Is PSI going to revalve, or just rebuild/refresh with the same valving? Assuming (and what happens when we do that?) that the original buyer bought the springs and shocks as a package, the shocks should be valved pretty well for the springs. If the shocks were valved to the springs, I'd start the shock adjustments in the middle of the range and adjust from there. Starting full soft and stiffening a couple clicks each time as you do test laps really takes a while if you're going to do it right.

Ask PSI to identify the piston type used in each shock, as that partly determines what damping speed range your adjustments affect. See page 17 in the 8760 manual. Hopefully PSI will do an adjuster sweep of each shock on the dyno when they're done and give you the data. The manuals and other tech articles on Penske's site have a wealth of info.
 
148
252
Utah
Is PSI going to revalve, or just rebuild/refresh with the same valving? Assuming (and what happens when we do that?) that the original buyer bought the springs and shocks as a package, the shocks should be valved pretty well for the springs. If the shocks were valved to the springs, I'd start the shock adjustments in the middle of the range and adjust from there. Starting full soft and stiffening a couple clicks each time as you do test laps really takes a while if you're going to do it right.

Ask PSI to identify the piston type used in each shock, as that partly determines what damping speed range your adjustments affect. See page 17 in the 8760 manual. Hopefully PSI will do an adjuster sweep of each shock on the dyno when they're done and give you the data. The manuals and other tech articles on Penske's site have a wealth of info.
Great advise. PSI is going to call and let me know general condition and cost. My intent was to just to a refresh and rebuild, but I will inquire about the valving and if I can get a dyno chart. I did send in my intended spring rates with the work order, but I will be sure and address the spring rates directly. Thanks!
 
148
252
Utah
Second track weekend (July 30-Aug1 2021) was the NASA Utah vent at UMC running the outer loop. The outer loop is a horsepower layout, with only a few slower turns. It was important to try and settle the car down for the higher speeds I would experience over the West course the month before.

I probably worked two to three hours per night (not to mention weekends…) on progressing the car (better seat, finish the dash, hood vents) but on setup. It wasn’t that the setup is that hard, it is me learning how to do the setup, what adjustments affect what setup and the order in which to accomplish the task.

First a few problems I ran into the previous track day and the solutions. In one session, the car had a hesitation in the throttle that was not consistent, but was quite evident, like 3-5 seconds in duration. Happened twice that day. When I got the car he and was going through checking everything, I noticed that the intake tube was not secure on the throttle body. This was something I had purposely removed during maintenance and attached again, so I knew it was secure previously. This is the case of a street/strip part not proving to be ready for the road course. It had an Airaid plastic intake tube, which I promptly switched out for the AEM aluminum intake tube. Problem solved.

Ran into some clutch issues as the day progressed and it felt like I was loosing hydraulic pressure. In the last session, I pulled off as the shifting had become notchy and pedal engagement was low in the stroke. We had our enduro from 6:00 pm to midnight and I work the pits so the car sat for more than 6 hours. After the enduro, the pedal went to the floor, no clutch disengagement! So I started the car in gear, shifted the old fashioned way to get home, luckily only having to come to a stop once (1:00am in Utah tends to be pretty light on traffic).

Mods between track days:
AEM intake tube (Airraid tube popping off)
Ford Performance One Piece Aluminum Driveshaft
BMR rear adjustable upper control arm
Intake Heat Barrier
Center Trackspec hood vent
Sparco Drivers Seat
Center Console (cupholders required… you try drinking a slushy on the way home from the track.)

Here is were I was on setup this time:
Front:
1000lb spring
35mm bar - 2nd from full stiff
Camber: -2.0
Caster: 6.9
LS Comp: 14/22 +2
HS Comp: 6/14 +1
Rebound: 15/44

Rear:
300lb spring
Watson 1/2” bar
LS Comp: 10/22
HS Comp: 4/14
Rebound: 16/44 +4

I worked with the damping during the day. The car was much more settled than the month before, and at the 130+ speeds on the main straight felt much more stable. It still has some “waggle” under hard braking, thus my adjustments on increasing front LS Comp and rear Rebound, but at least it is feeling more balanced, although a bit unforgiving. I will likely run these rates again and continue to work on the car setup. I have to remember that I need to learn how to drive a race car, not a street car that works well on the track. I have been reading about triple adjustable dampers and have received some great advise from members on TMO. So much to learn and a long way to go!

The outer loop is 3 miles, 15 turns. I the morning I did a personal best, lowering my time by 5 seconds to a 2:13.352 over my 3V car. Needless to say I was very happy with that result. Data showed great progress on the first 6 turns and a little progress on the back side of the track. Always more work to do on the driver!

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