Anyone find a fix for fuel sloshing and starvation?

[sldghmr]

Can't speak to the Radium fuel hanger (actually had not heard of it), but have heard good things about their stuff. I've been having to pinch pennies a little harder, so I did a DIY setup:
2015 GT/PP w/TrackPack, 275 Toyo RR's/295 Hoosier R7's
DeatschWerks surge tank w/external pump (really wanted an internal)
Two OEM fuel pumps in tank (each side)
an6 line tying it all together
an8 feeding the engine

Been able to run it down to less than 1 gal in the tank before stumbling. Able to drive in and only drained out about maybe 6-10oz...
Pros: No more starvation, saved a little over premade kits
Cons: No more gas guage (but it's a dedicated track car so.....)

 

[EF1]

I still street drive mine some so I need to keep the fuel gauge functional.

 

[GAR944]

Time to revise this one again. I was a few seconds a lap faster at Gingerman this week than last year and started experiencing fuel starvation for the first time in one section of the track. I am starting to look at solutions. Car is a 2011 GT with a 100,000 mile Gen 1 Coyote and ported Boss manifold and throttle body running 295 wide Toyo Proxes R tires. For those of you that went the Radium fuel hanger route has it solved your problem?

I haven't had any issues with the radium in tank unit. Usually start with half tank and run 20 minutes at a time. Throw 20 litres (5.3g) at it each session. Have seen it average 52 litres/100km or 4.5mpg. Haven't consciously watched the fuel level but also haven't had any problems. Its a simple fix. Not the best, as an external surge tank with pump will always be the ultimate, but finding room and plumbing, wiring etc makes it a pain on all but a dedicated race car.

 

[EF1]

I haven't had any issues with the radium in tank unit. Usually start with half tank and run 20 minutes at a time. Throw 20 litres (5.3g) at it each session. Have seen it average 52 litres/100km or 4.5mpg. Haven't consciously watched the fuel level but also haven't had any problems. Its a simple fix. Not the best, as an external surge tank with pump will always be the ultimate, but finding room and plumbing, wiring etc makes it a pain on all but a dedicated race car.

Thanks that helps. Which pump are you running and did you use the factory pump wires ir run heavier wires?

 

[Junkyard Dog]

What I posted in another forum about the KPM Fuel Systems simple solution for the problem.

#45

As pictured above the stock Mustang pot has 2 venturis and 1 refill umbrella valve.

1 venturi siphon is used to draw fuel from the RH side of the saddle tank into the fuel pump bucket

1 venturi siphon is used to draw fuel from the LH side of the saddle tank into the fuel pump bucket

1 umbrella valve is used to ensure the bucket allows entry of fuel surrounding it at all times without allowing it to re-escape.

The stock Mustang fuel pump delivers approx. 272lph of fuel when under maximum load.

The venturi siphons must keep the bucket full, therefore must draw in excess of 272lph.



We have posted a picture below of a KPM fuel bucket that is used on all the Mustang fuel module range that we manufacture.

The KPM bucket has 4 venturis and 2 umbrella valves

1 venturi siphon is used to draw fuel from the RH side of the saddle tank into the fuel pump bucket

3 venturi siphons are used to draw fuel from the LH side of the saddle tank into the fuel pump bucket

2 umbrella valves are used to ensure the bucket allows entry of fuel surrounding it all

The large KPM 1500 fuel pump module delivers approx. 600lph of fuel under maximum load Therefore we have incorporated the extra venturis and umbrella valves to ensure that the bucket remains full under every possible scenario by drawing in excess of 600lph.

This means all KPM fuel modules can continue to draw all the fuel required under full load down to a near empty fuel tank.
Sponsored

 

[Junkyard Dog]

For Performance Racing School is using the KPM Fuel pumps to cure this issue in their Dark Horse Mustangs.

KPM says:

"The DH was experiencing starvation/ surging issues on high speed cornering when less than 3/4 of fuel in the tank.
The KPM fuel module completely rectified this issue eliminating starvation/surge at any fuel level down to an empty fuel tank."

 

[EF1]

For Performance Racing School is using the KPM Fuel pumps to cure this issue in their Dark Horse Mustangs.

KPM says:

"The DH was experiencing starvation/ surging issues on high speed cornering when less than 3/4 of fuel in the tank.
The KPM fuel module completely rectified this issue eliminating starvation/surge at any fuel level down to an empty fuel tank."

KPM doesn’t show anything for the S197 Mustang.

 

[67GTA]

KPM doesn’t show anything for the S197 Mustang.

I noticed that as well. Since the basket is the same on all the years, I wonder if the limitation is the factory 20a circuit on the S197s vs 30a on the S550s. Could probably be made to work with a dedicated wire/circuit.

 

[JDee]

This was a problem on S550s as well. I used to just top off before every session and that was all it needed. I was always going to do something more substantial but this was such a simple fix I never did anything else. There was always some other thing that needed fixing more than this.

 

[GAR944]

Thanks that helps. Which pump are you running and did you use the factory pump wires ir run heavier wires?

Just a single pump as i'm running a stock engine. I'll check the wiring when installing but i don't believe that's drawing more than a stock pump. Assuming the diagram i looked at is correct then the stock circuit runs a 30A fuse.

View attachment 89450View attachment 89451

The KPM system seems to be more concerned about HP rating and fuel quantity with the bonus being fuel starvation mitigation. They need a version with pump options. The Radium unit allows you to choose a pump to suit your HP and therefore wiring capacity as well. No point pumping 800hp of fuel if you only need 400hp, just heating up fuel.
The radium appears to have more volume in the sump and therefore longer drive time before starvation.

 

[EF1]

This was a problem on S550s as well. I used to just top off before every session and that was all it needed. I was always going to do something more substantial but this was such a simple fix I never did anything else. There was always some other thing that needed fixing more than this.

Topping off is not always convenient, besides my car is 15 years old at this point and the fuel filter is inside the pump. I would rather change out the pump and add an external filter that is serviceable.

 

[EF1]

The KPM system seems to be more concerned about HP rating and fuel quantity with the bonus being fuel starvation mitigation. They need a version with pump options. The Radium unit allows you to choose a pump to suit your HP and therefore wiring capacity as well. No point pumping 800hp of fuel if you only need 400hp, just heating up fuel.
The radium appears to have more volume in the sump and therefore longer drive time before starvation.

The Radiun option looks like a more flexible solution. It also appears to be of much better build quality fir the money.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

KPM doesn’t show anything for the S197 Mustang.

EF1, You have my humblest apologies. I did not notice this thread was in an S197 Mustang Tech section. And here I thought I had something useful to offer . . .


Fail


I'll pay more attention next time.

 

[EF1]

EF1, You have my humblest apologies. I did not notice this thread was in an S197 Mustang Tech section. And here I thought I had something useful to offer . . .


Fail


I'll pay more attention next time.

No apologies necessary. A lot of things crossover platforms. The KPM fuel hanger may fit the S197 but it has not been tested yet.

 

[stevbd]

@EF1 I chased this issue of misfiring on left hand corners for a long time with my 2011 and I have 2 quick thoughts that may or may not be useful to you.

First, as I imagine you know, the fuel pump in a 2011 GT has a "lifetime" fuel filter inside of it which of course it isn't. Mine was chock full of dirt and grime as you would expect with high mileage. Replacing my fuel pump with a stock replacement helped but didn't totally solve my left turn misfiring problem.

Second, I found the root cause of my problem was my engine wiring harness was severely worn away by the rocking motion of the engine, where it attaches to the right front of the engine, and as a result it was sporadically shorting out power to the coil packs as the engine twisted and made contact with the bare wires. This tended to happen on hard acceleration and hard left hand corners, which led me to suspect and chase fuel supply problems forever. Check out this thread: https://trackmustangsonline.com/thr...-this-section-of-engine-wiring-harness.20918/

I know this is a long shot and that your problem quite likely is fuel slosh. But seeing that you have a 2011, I would consider checking that area of the engine harness carefully, it was a poor install from the factory. Good luck.

 

[EF1]

@EF1 I chased this issue of misfiring on left hand corners for a long time with my 2011 and I have 2 quick thoughts that may or may not be useful to you.

First, as I imagine you know, the fuel pump in a 2011 GT has a "lifetime" fuel filter inside of it which of course it isn't. Mine was chock full of dirt and grime as you would expect with high mileage. Replacing my fuel pump with a stock replacement helped but didn't totally solve my left turn misfiring problem.

Second, I found the root cause of my problem was my engine wiring harness was severely worn away by the rocking motion of the engine, where it attaches to the right front of the engine, and as a result it was sporadically shorting out power to the coil packs as the engine twisted and made contact with the bare wires. This tended to happen on hard acceleration and hard left hand corners, which led me to suspect and chase fuel supply problems forever. Check out this thread: https://trackmustangsonline.com/thr...-this-section-of-engine-wiring-harness.20918/

I know this is a long shot and that your problem quite likely is fuel slosh. But seeing that you have a 2011, I would consider checking that area of the engine harness carefully, it was a poor install from the factory. Good luck.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I suspect at 100,000 miles the fuel filter is clogging. That is one of the reasons I am looking at the Radium fuel hanger and new pump with a serviceable filter. I know an external surge tank is the best way to prevent fuel starvation but I do not want one in a street car. Besides, I would still want a new fuel pump/filter with the surge tank option. I did not see any wiring issues in April when the engine was out but wasn’t specifically looking for any either. I will inspect the wiring this weekend.

 

[RodS197]

The in tank Radium fuel hanger is probably a good solution for a street/track car. It has all the bits to help fuel starvation, although when asked, Radium tech has posted the it isn't a definitive fix, where their external surge tank is.

I recently experienced bad fuel starvation in my fast left handers after some winter performance mods, including larger injectors. My car is a track only trailered car. I can tell you the Radium surge tank solved the problem hands down. It also connects seamlessly into the S197 fuel system, making use of the stock pump as a lift pump, connecting the "out" hose from the stock fuel pump to the surge tank, then routing the pressure side of the surge tank back to the top of the fuel tank and connecting to the hose that goes to the engine (along with a return from the radium tank to the stock fuel tank via the filler neck). I could return it to stock very easily as I didn't have to cut into the stock system, not that I want to, but for a street/track car it is important in my book. They have full instructions, all the wiring and parts ready to go. There are also some posts here on TMO of how to do it.

The caveat is that the pump in the surge tank is super loud. I put in a Walbro pump in the surge tank. On my way to grid is sounds like I am dragging my rear brakes, possibly while scratching a chalkboard with my fingernails.

I am not sure I can recommend it for a street/track car, but I would go in the direction of the Radium hanger as it is a 90% solution. Definitely hit the Radium tech email up with your concerns. They were very straightforward as I was putting together my setup.

 

[GAR944]

The in tank Radium fuel hanger is probably a good solution for a street/track car. It has all the bits to help fuel starvation, although when asked, Radium tech has posted the it isn't a definitive fix, where their external surge tank is.

I recently experienced bad fuel starvation in my fast left handers after some winter performance mods, including larger injectors. My car is a track only trailered car. I can tell you the Radium surge tank solved the problem hands down. It also connects seamlessly into the S197 fuel system, making use of the stock pump as a lift pump, connecting the "out" hose from the stock fuel pump to the surge tank, then routing the pressure side of the surge tank back to the top of the fuel tank and connecting to the hose that goes to the engine (along with a return from the radium tank to the stock fuel tank via the filler neck). I could return it to stock very easily as I didn't have to cut into the stock system, not that I want to, but for a street/track car it is important in my book. They have full instructions, all the wiring and parts ready to go. There are also some posts here on TMO of how to do it.

The caveat is that the pump in the surge tank is super loud. I put in a Walbro pump in the surge tank. On my way to grid is sounds like I am dragging my rear brakes, possibly while scratching a chalkboard with my fingernails.

I am not sure I can recommend it for a street/track car, but I would go in the direction of the Radium hanger as it is a 90% solution. Definitely hit the Radium tech email up with your concerns. They were very straightforward as I was putting together my setup.

View attachment 105492

Can confirm, have one of these in the wheel well of the 944 and the pump noise with a bosch 044 is deafening. The in tank unit in the mustang i don't hear.

 

[EF1]

I haven't had any issues with the radium in tank unit. Usually start with half tank and run 20 minutes at a time. Throw 20 litres (5.3g) at it each session. Have seen it average 52 litres/100km or 4.5mpg. Haven't consciously watched the fuel level but also haven't had any problems. Its a simple fix. Not the best, as an external surge tank with pump will always be the ultimate, but finding room and plumbing, wiring etc makes it a pain on all but a dedicated race car.

Do you have any pictures of the install? I am interested in where you mounted an inline fuel filter.

 

[GAR944]

Do you have any pictures of the install? I am interested in where you mounted an inline fuel filter.

I'm also interested where that inline filter is mounted.
Ooopppssss, that one slipped the memory banks with the long list of other modifications going on.
Time to move that back up to the top of the list.
Sorry, no real photos of any value. It was a midnight finish job so was just busting to get it done. You will need a fuel pressure gauge to set the pressure on the regulator. Small imperial allen key which wont be an issue for you but at midnight in a metric garage was the last straw for me. Apart from that it is pretty simple, just make sure when you go to do it the tank is really low on fuel. I seem to remember someone say below a 1/3 tank, mine was full so spent ages bypassing the pump control to drain it.