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S197 3V Boone's BBB '05 GT Optima & CAM Build Build Thread Profile - S197 Mustangs

Boone

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Update on the nightmare I'm hoping to wake up from:
My machinist can't do a sleeve on a single cylinder since it will distort the adjacent bore. He has bored my cylinder .010 over, and it didn't clean up all the mess. I've got a shadow in the bore, and my machinist says it won't hold compression like that. I'm going to tell him to go .020 over to see if it comes out. That is the largest bore on a modular engine I have ever heard of, and that would only leave 5.512mm of material between the bores. I'd need a full set of 3.720 pistons to make that work at about $1,600. This is my cheapest way out if the block cleans up at .020 over. If any block can handle the larger bore, it's the BOSS50 block I have, but I'm concerned the added stress of boost will cause further issues.

So I'm investigating new blocks.

1. A new BOSS50 block will run me $2K, and it will need to be honed and decked. I added some additional machining when I did this originally for a second knock sensor.
2. L&M will sleeve a 4.6L block for $2K, and they'll finish the machining to 3.700 bore for another $1K. I can reuse my 7 pistons doing this. I'll need to locate a good 3V block to make that happen. I'd loose the weight of the iron alloy block going down this road, which is a good thing.
3. Complete 5.3L short blocks will run me between $5K and $9K, depending on the builder and miscellaneous options.

I have some decisions to make.
 

ChrisM

Mostly harmless.
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I'd give some heavy consideration to #2. It seems like the most cost-effective and since you're adding FI, you'll want to save the weight versus the iron block I think. I don't know what the most reliable solution would be though. Sorry this is such a mess man. It's kind of easy to see why people trade up to the Coyote so quickly when there's so little support for the 4.6 any more.
 

Boone

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I'm leaning toward sleeving the aluminum block. If the "shadows" don't come out of the bore at .020 over, I'll need a 3V block. I have Pro Dyno and L&M testing the market to see what they can find. Still not sure whether I'll have the machining work done locally or by L&M. We'll see how the bore looks at .020 over before I need to make a decision.
 

Fabman

Project: "Frankenstang"
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I'm leaning toward sleeving the aluminum block. If the "shadows" don't come out of the bore at .020 over, I'll need a 3V block. I have Pro Dyno and L&M testing the market to see what they can find. Still not sure whether I'll have the machining work done locally or by L&M. We'll see how the bore looks at .020 over before I need to make a decision.
I have a 4.6 short block w/forged rods/pistons (one bad piston)
I also have 6 of the stroker rods/pistons from Frankenstang.
 

Boone

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Fabman, I may be at the point where I need to start hording parts for the NEXT issue, so I'll let you know if I'm going to make a nationwide sweep of 3V performance parts. Brutal that it's not "IF", it's "NEXT" now. You probably made a good call by pausing to take a look at the future. I may have to move so I can have someplace to store every item I could possibly need to keep this thing going.
 

Boone

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Build direction chosen... The bore cleaned up at .020 over, so I'm ordering new pistons and keeping the iron alloy block. Total displacement will be 326 cu. in. for a 16% increase over stock. The order has been placed to Diamond. I took advantage of the opportunity to purchase "boost friendly" pistons, and I went with a 22cc dish (previously 6.9cc dish while NA) for a 9.5:1 CR. This will make it possible to run pump gas if I choose to do so. I'm definitely planning to run the car on E85 as long as I'm tracking the car. The higher octane and cooling characteristics of the E85 will be invaluable.

The Kenny Belle should make up for the torque loss from the lower CR down low, and I may end up with a little more boost than previously planned. I'm thinking I'll need to make about 13 psi to hit the 650whp target. First tune will still be on the large blower pulley (3 3/4"). We'll see how that goes, and I'll move to a slightly smaller pulley (3 1/2") if the call comes down from Captain Kirk for MORE POWER!! The comparatively large pulley sizes and Thumper tensioner combine to limit belt slip and are made possible by an overdrive crank pulley and some proven research by Fabman. I can't tell you how much I appreciate his help on this project.

Also, if you read my last post, I am going to move. Offer was accepted yesterday. There will be a new garage in my future with room to store parts, and tires, and wheels, and tools, and all the other crap I'm accumulating. I hope my new neighbors like the ground shaking thump of a V8.
 

Fabman

Project: "Frankenstang"
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In these uncertain times, it is equally important to rejoice and cry. So here are a couple of pictures so you can do both.
View attachment 13992View attachment 13993

Pistons are in the hands of my engine builder now for assemble and balancing. Maybe I'll be ready to roll when the world is "open" again.
Ouch that head will give me nightmares....
 

Boone

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It's reader input time... I'm on the fence on how to upgrade my fuel delivery system. Options are as follows:
1. Purchase a Kenne Belle Boost-A-Pump and stay returnless. $500
2. Purchase two DeatschWerks 415 LPH fuel pump and drop them into the GT500 twin pump hats and stay returnless. $500
3. Purchase a DivisionX return style fuel system. $1900

Of course I'd like to go with the cheaper options, but with 650rwhp on E85 (fuel amount equivalent to about 850rwhp on gasoline), I'm thinking it may be prudent to drop the extra cash and go return style. I know Fabman had a return style system, and I would be at the upper operating end of the recommended operating range for a returnless system. My tuner would like to go returnless. My philosophy is not to vary too far from how the engineers at Ford intended the car to work, but I think I've blown right through what Ford intended for a 3V at this power level. I'm talking myself out of a couple grand as I write this. What if it actually WAS your money? THOUGHTS?
 

Tonymustang302

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It's reader input time... I'm on the fence on how to upgrade my fuel delivery system. Options are as follows:
1. Purchase a Kenne Belle Boost-A-Pump and stay returnless. $500
2. Purchase two DeatschWerks 415 LPH fuel pump and drop them into the GT500 twin pump hats and stay returnless. $500
3. Purchase a DivisionX return style fuel system. $1900

Of course I'd like to go with the cheaper options, but with 650rwhp on E85 (fuel amount equivalent to about 850rwhp on gasoline), I'm thinking it may be prudent to drop the extra cash and go return style. I know Fabman had a return style system, and I would be at the upper operating end of the recommended operating range for a returnless system. My tuner would like to go returnless. My philosophy is not to vary too far from how the engineers at Ford intended the car to work, but I think I've blown right through what Ford intended for a 3V at this power level. I'm talking myself out of a couple grand as I write this. What if it actually WAS your money? THOUGHTS?
My turbo car builder very much dislikes any boost-a-pump modules or anything.....he claims they are unreliable and can fail. (He's known for the fastest mustangs in the US) Return type doesn't.....better to have more fuel than not enough....running lean is what blows these motors up.
 

Fabman

Project: "Frankenstang"
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It's reader input time... I'm on the fence on how to upgrade my fuel delivery system. Options are as follows:
1. Purchase a Kenne Belle Boost-A-Pump and stay returnless. $500
2. Purchase two DeatschWerks 415 LPH fuel pump and drop them into the GT500 twin pump hats and stay returnless. $500
3. Purchase a DivisionX return style fuel system. $1900

Of course I'd like to go with the cheaper options, but with 650rwhp on E85 (fuel amount equivalent to about 850rwhp on gasoline), I'm thinking it may be prudent to drop the extra cash and go return style. I know Fabman had a return style system, and I would be at the upper operating end of the recommended operating range for a returnless system. My tuner would like to go returnless. My philosophy is not to vary too far from how the engineers at Ford intended the car to work, but I think I've blown right through what Ford intended for a 3V at this power level. I'm talking myself out of a couple grand as I write this. What if it actually WAS your money? THOUGHTS?
Do the return style system, you already have the Fuel rails so you can ask them to cut that cost from the price.
Road course work can be very demanding on the fuel system and you don't want to run lean.
 

Boone

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Staying on the fuel delivery theme, has anyone used a ProFlex Commander from Advanced Fuel Dynamics? I saw an article on Grassroots and contacted them. Their kit is claimed to act as a FlexFuel sensor that can be used with any tune. I could run E90, E50, or 93 octane without a tune change, and apparently the kit will make the most of whatever octane is available. I'm not sure if it can adjust timing and fuel flow, or if it only adjusts fuel flow.


My point is, I've always thought the FlexFuel systems were the way to go with a street / track car. This possibility is the reason I ordered my new pistons at 9.5:1 instead of staying at 11:1 with boost. I can run 93 octane, but I don't want to, but I could in a pinch. Now I'm feeling like there could be some modern fuel convenience for my 3V. It would be nice not to have to test the E85 ethanol content every time I pull up to a pump. Not to mention, if your low on fuel, and the E85 at the pump you're using samples at E50, I don't want to start walking 10 miles to the next E85 station.
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
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You lost me at Full and Qualitative Diagnostics of Engine and other Car Systems, haha! But welcome and for a first post I would pat yourself on the back , because I am sure this is a huge benefit to the Super Mechanically Inclined!

Where is Spain are you and what Mustang do you happen to own?
 

67GTA

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Looks like Bill was into the Bloody Mary's a little early this morning. Unless my phone is crossing streams.
It was his response to a SPAM post. I’ll vouch for him - I saw it as well before the mods deleted it. Not saying he wasn’t hitting the bloody mary’s though, he’ll have to answer that...
 

Boone

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Fueling options have been considered, decided on, and ordered. Plan is as follows:

Fore Dual Pump Return Style System
Primary - TI F90000274
Secondary - TI F90000285
FC3 Staged pump controller
88 mm stainless steel filter
8AN PTFE lines

The TI F90000274 is the gold standard in pumps. It flows 422 L/hr at 43psi and produces very little heat. The TI F90000285 flows 470 L/hr at 40psi, but the extra 10% of output comes at the cost of 15% higher amp draw, thus more heat into the fuel. This is the reason I chose to stage the pumps rather than run them both full time. The 8AN lines will feed up to 1200whp, so this set up should be more than I will ever need, which is the whole point of upgrading the fuel system.

I'm putting an Advanced Fuel Dynamics Pro Flex Commander flex fuel system into the mix. The sensor is a GM flex fuel sensor on the return line with 6AN fittings. I'll be able to swap from gas to E85 seamlessly, and any inferior blends of E85 will automatically be accounted for without a tune change. Since the 6AN fittings for the flex fuel system are on the return line, the restriction should not be a problem since the fuel consumed at the fuel rail will reduce the volume of fuel returning to the tank under WOT. At low loads and idle, I don't see where the restriction would be an issue in flow. The primary pump will work a little harder, but by selecting the 274 primary and the FC3 controller, less heat is being generated under normal operating conditions (as in on the street).

One wrinkle my tuner, Dan Desio, and I are considering is putting a bypass switch on the Hobbs switch to run the second pump continuously while on track. We'll put the switch in the cabin, and I'll turn it on when it's GO time. The idea is to eliminate the frequent cycling of the switch and the delay in fuel supply under load during road course and autoX use. I'm not sure this is possible, but I've proposed this to Justin at Fore, and we'll see what he has to say.
 

Fabman

Project: "Frankenstang"
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Fueling options have been considered, decided on, and ordered. Plan is as follows:

Fore Dual Pump Return Style System
Primary - TI F90000274
Secondary - TI F90000285
FC3 Staged pump controller
88 mm stainless steel filter
8AN PTFE lines

The TI F90000274 is the gold standard in pumps. It flows 422 L/hr at 43psi and produces very little heat. The TI F90000285 flows 470 L/hr at 40psi, but the extra 10% of output comes at the cost of 15% higher amp draw, thus more heat into the fuel. This is the reason I chose to stage the pumps rather than run them both full time. The 8AN lines will feed up to 1200whp, so this set up should be more than I will ever need, which is the whole point of upgrading the fuel system.

I'm putting an Advanced Fuel Dynamics Pro Flex Commander flex fuel system into the mix. The sensor is a GM flex fuel sensor on the return line with 6AN fittings. I'll be able to swap from gas to E85 seamlessly, and any inferior blends of E85 will automatically be accounted for without a tune change. Since the 6AN fittings for the flex fuel system are on the return line, the restriction should not be a problem since the fuel consumed at the fuel rail will reduce the volume of fuel returning to the tank under WOT. At low loads and idle, I don't see where the restriction would be an issue in flow. The primary pump will work a little harder, but by selecting the 274 primary and the FC3 controller, less heat is being generated under normal operating conditions (as in on the street).

One wrinkle my tuner, Dan Desio, and I are considering is putting a bypass switch on the Hobbs switch to run the second pump continuously while on track. We'll put the switch in the cabin, and I'll turn it on when it's GO time. The idea is to eliminate the frequent cycling of the switch and the delay in fuel supply under load during road course and autoX use. I'm not sure this is possible, but I've proposed this to Justin at Fore, and we'll see what he has to say.
I have an e85 content meter in the return line so I am constantly monitoring fuel content. Worth the price of admission in my opinion.
 

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