Cup2R Tires Road Atlanta - Managing Pressure at HPDE Track Event

[stevbd]

Why didn't you just replace the plastic valve stems with metal and keep your TPMS sensors? That is what I did on my 2011. Yes they don't give actual pressures, just a low warning, but at least it keeps the lights off on the dash.

I have 3 sets of wheels and only 2 sets of tpms sensors so I use the sensors on my summer and winter wheels and just plain metal stems on my track wheels. Since I only use my track tires at the track, I don't really care about the tpms light.

But I agree yours is the better solution.

 

[bnight]

I have 3 sets of wheels and only 2 sets of tpms sensors so I use the sensors on my summer and winter wheels and just plain metal stems on my track wheels. Since I only use my track tires at the track, I don't really care about the tpms light.

But I agree yours is the better solution.

you don't care but yet here you are asking for tpms The reality is that tpms is really helpful on track or at least I prefer having mine on because not only is faster to adjust tires based of it's data but also gives you clear reference when your tires are up to temp and you can start pushing.

 

[stevbd]

you don't care but yet here you are asking for tpms The reality is that tpms is really helpful on track or at least I prefer having mine on because not only is faster to adjust tires based of it's data but also gives you clear reference when your tires are up to temp and you can start pushing.

The reason I don't care about using the factory system in my 2011 on track is because it's merely a light that comes on when one tire is under a certain pressure. Below approx. 25 psi on any tire triggers the warning light. That's it. It doesn't distinguish between tires and it doesn't provide any actual psi numbers. I think the system in your newer S550 is much more helpful but I don't have any personal experience with it.

 

[bnight]

The reason I don't care about using the factory system in my 2011 on track is because it's merely a light that comes on when one tire is under a certain pressure. Below approx. 25 psi on any tire triggers the warning light. That's it. It doesn't distinguish between tires and it doesn't provide any actual psi numbers. I think the system in your newer S550 is much more helpful but I don't have any personal experience with it.

Yeah the S550 system shows actual PSI which helps with setting tire pressures as well as essentially monitor tire temps (pressure) during laps so I know when my tires have reached target pressure and I can push.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Interesting note from bnight, but I would suggest use of this depends on what you are engaging on track with your car ( i.e. HPDE, Time Trials, W2W ). If you are doing Time Trials or W2W I would highly suggest working more on your butt-o-meter primarily and only checking tire temps on occasion during those sessions. I think learning by the seat of your pants when the tire temps are right is extremely important in those cases as so many rely on instrumentation or other guides when it is key to have the feel for when things are right. When younger, that was my strength in a W2W race, as I could usually get my tires up to temp where I felt the grip level was solid ( maybe not optimal ) so I was quick in the early laps. That has to be a learned skill in my estimation, and waiting on a gauge to indicate when you might be able to rock and roll could leave you at a disadvantage in some types of track events.

HPDEs, where often learning or testing your skills is more of the goal, what the heck, the info bnight has noted is pretty cool, imho.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Every pro level series still takes psi and temps on pit road.
TPMS is a tool, but without a pit lane reference along with an ambient and track temp, you're urinating into the wind.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

That sounds kind of gross , Blacksheep, couldn't you have used a better metaphor , like ................if you don't get someone like Blacksheep to check out the tires , you are just pooping in the pitlane!

 

[blacksheep-1]

That sounds kind of gross , Blacksheep, couldn't you have used a better metaphor , like ................if you don't get someone like Blacksheep to check out the tires , you are just pooping in the pitlane!

Here's the deal, @Bill Pemberton , I have been hearing this for 10 years, ( 10 with TPMSA plus about 5 prior) how TPMS will replace the tire guy, it won't, it's a big assist with the dynamics while the car is on the track, but you still need that snapshot to find out how to get there. You also have other dynamics such as wear and weather, and things like ( and Porsches are real bad about this) heat soaking the tires and hosing up all those numbers under braking.
I would never put all my tire decisions in the TPMS basket.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Dear Little Lambie Pie of a dark color, you know I luvz ya, you live in Florida, I wuz born there, but I was jest funning wit you, because if you read my earlier post I poo-poo the use of the sensors. Use one's butt-o-meter to work on pressures , because like you note those goofy things are not always accurate or can easily fail on the track under hard conditions. I have had students want to view their tire pressures while doing 100-120 down a straight instead of focusing on braking zones, so I have come down hard on a few to forget about checking that and watching important items like oil pressure and fluid temps.

I believe completely as you do and just making that clear! The number of TMPSs I have had in my track cars over the past 25 years is ----------------zero! Tires are on race wheels ( not rims ) and pressure checked after runs. Funny thing is years ago no one would use them at all , as their failure rate on the track was huge! We often ran out of them at the Dealership because the other issue was their fragility often damaged during tire changes. Things are different now, but do yourself a favor folks and heed the words of the Lamb of Tires, amen to his sermon, if not it is your fault, as he is the guru of asphalt!

 

[blacksheep-1]

Dear Little Lambie Pie of a dark color, you know I luvz ya, you live in Florida, I wuz born there, but I was jest funning wit you, because if you read my earlier post I poo-poo the use of the sensors. Use one's butt-o-meter to work on pressures , because like you note those goofy things are not always accurate or can easily fail on the track under hard conditions. I have had students want to view their tire pressures while doing 100-120 down a straight instead of focusing on braking zones, so I have come down hard on a few to forget about checking that and watching important items like oil pressure and fluid temps.

I believe completely as you do and just making that clear! The number of TMPSs I have had in my track cars over the past 25 years is ----------------zero! Tires are on race wheels ( not rims ) and pressure checked after runs. Funny thing is years ago no one would use them at all , as their failure rate on the track was huge! We often ran out of them at the Dealership because the other issue was their fragility often damaged during tire changes. Things are different now, but do yourself a favor folks and heed the words of the Lamb of Tires, amen to his sermon, if not it is your fault, as he is the guru of asphalt!

I was pointing out that I agree with you. I guess it came across wrong.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Well, ya know, two old Trackrats from Florida trying to speak proper English ---lost cause, ha!

 

[Egparson202]

Here's the deal, @Bill Pemberton , I have been hearing this for 10 years, ( 10 with TPMSA plus about 5 prior) how TPMS will replace the tire guy, it won't, it's a big assist with the dynamics while the car is on the track, but you still need that snapshot to find out how to get there. You also have other dynamics such as wear and weather, and things like ( and Porsches are real bad about this) heat soaking the tires and hosing up all those numbers under braking.
I would never put all my tire decisions in the TPMS basket.

I have the tools and can get the help to take pressures and temps in the hot pit during a session. The question I have is how I should handle the car on the in lap. I’m thinking it would be best to run it at 10/10’s or thereabouts and only dial back enough to enter the hot pit safely somewhere around lap 6-7, Have my helper located somewhat closer to pit in than pit out in a safe spot and keep the car running with foot off the brake.

I’d appreciate your thoughts on how refine/correct this approach further.

 

[stevbd]

I apologize, I wasn't trying to start so much controversy with my question about TPMS lol.

Just my 2 cents and probably not worth that.... I totally agree TPMS can never replace good driver "feel" or in person tire inspections and pressure checking. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. But I do think a modern TPMS readout could be a helpful additional data point in real time especially for a more experienced track driver. I can see a definite advantage to being able to confirm in real time that tires are up to pressure without wasting a lap or more dipping your toe in the water with intentional and safe over-braking and induced understeer to "feel" if the tires are good to go or not. Plus, how long it takes to get tires up to temp can vary a lot from day to day, event to event, and tire to tire. So it takes some patience if you are on more aggressive track tires and want to play it at all conservative and safe. Also, a lot of great track tires have awesome feedback and feel when hot but are kind of silent uncommunicating hockey pucks when cold. There isn't always a lot of "feel" to feel, even if you know what you are looking for. I've spun on GY 3R's under yellow on an out lap on a cold day while adjusting my harnesses. Yes that was on me and was embarrassing. But my point is, I don't see anything wrong with a gauge that gives you an additional data point that your tires are in the ballpark on psi and temp. Not instead of feel, but in addition to it. I agree all of this is less of an issue with street tires that aren't so much of an on-off switch.

F1 steering wheels have readouts for tire pressure/temp. I figure if it's helpful data for Max V it can probably be helpful for me.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

No controversy, Steve, we are just having fun , but also trying to state the point that folks may check things on occasion, but some of us old farts , along with a Seasoned Pro ( that be Blacksheep ) are simply cautioning folks and saying in this situation the old methods are still the best -- enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[blacksheep-1]

When we ran the Gt3 Porsche, I could look at each lap ( almost really close but not quite) real time as the car was going around the track. It was actually pretty cool, and was far better than having the driver look at it ( more on that later). You could take a long left hander where the rights were under excessive load for a large period of time, and drop the PSI a few tenths to compensate for that but.. you also had to figure in time, temp, lap times, tire deg.. and again, have that pit lane snap shot to know exactly how much to change it.
With regards to drivers reading the numbers I used to have the driver call out the psi across from me on pit road, there was no telemetry on those Gt4s. This way I had a number to put with my number on pit lane. In one instance we had a kid that would spin the rear tires.. all the time. For this reason the rears were always started at minimum legal psi, the fronts were much higher at the start of the race, he would complain about the difference in psi. Nothing could be done, he was the problem, but it gave him something to complain about instead of driving the car.

 

[Tonymustang302]

I would pay you to show me how to look at tires and stuff.

 

[Egparson202]

I would pay you to show me how to look at tires and stuff.

A tire coach

 

[blacksheep-1]

I would pay you to show me how to look at tires and stuff.

Tire Guy Mafia.com

 

[stevbd]

No controversy, Steve, we are just having fun , but also trying to state the point that folks may check things on occasion, but some of us old farts , along with a Seasoned Pro ( that be Blacksheep ) are simply cautioning folks and saying in this situation the old methods are still the best -- enjoy the rest of your day.

Thanks Bill. I hear you and you make a good point. I'm more old school than you might think! You have a good day as well.

 

[dragoon]

Tires are on race wheels ( not rims ) and pressure checked after runs.

Every pro level series still takes psi and temps on pit road.
TPMS is a tool, but without a pit lane reference along with an ambient and track temp, you're urinating into the wind.

Agreed about the sensors about being a tool. I believe my tire pressure gauge doing an actual reading. I’ve noticed that the sensor & gauge don’t correspond, so accuracy in the sensors is questionable. Sometimes there is like a 2 pound difference between the two “tools”. Plus while on the track, trying to get to that screen is cumbersome at best. I like the on dash gauge package.
BS1 - it‘s more like a cow pissing on a flat rock.
Bill - you got it !!!