Has anyone tried the Vorshlag Air brakes instead of ducts

[boardkat]

Who made your fender vent?

a good engineering friend of mine 3D scanned my fender, designed a vent in CAD that lined up with the many reference lines/curves, then waterjetted me a set. PM if you want more details and i can put you in touch with him. it kicks the shiznit out of the generic miata vents that just look disproportionate and small, which is why i had him design me a set in the first place!

btw, nice visual on the duct dump. i will definitely be testing many iterations and report back.

 

[JeffV8]

a good engineering friend of mine 3D scanned my fender, designed a vent in CAD that lined up with the many reference lines/curves, then waterjetted me a set. PM if you want more details and i can put you in touch with him. it kicks the shiznit out of the generic miata vents that just look disproportionate and small, which is why i had him design me a set in the first place!

btw, nice visual on the duct dump. i will definitely be testing many iterations and report back.

To late for your vents on my fenders. Yours do look 100% better.

 

[drj2k1]

Love the variety of alternatives and solutions to traditional brake ducting in here. I've been considering the options for my s197 outside of the blowfish kit. I came across these recently on the Porsche forums, and was considering mocking up a set on the s197 control arms. Thinking that for 27 bucks a pop, they might be worth a shot
Porsche 964 Deflectors

 

[PatientZero]

Love the variety of alternatives and solutions to traditional brake ducting in here. I've been considering the options for my s197 outside of the blowfish kit. I came across these recently on the Porsche forums, and was considering mocking up a set on the s197 control arms. Thinking that for 27 bucks a pop, they might be worth a shot
Porsche 964 Deflectors

Those look like they might work if you build a bracket for them. I don't think you'd be able to mount them straight to the control arm just because of how it's made.

 

[HackBoss2901]

I experienced brake fade with the OEM PP1 deflector at ECR with 80* outside temps. So I removed the oem deflector and added the larger Vorshlag style deflectors and still experienced some mild fade, but improved overall. I then added 3-inch ducts to direct more air towards the deflector for the next event. Since doing so I have experienced zero fade issues in 90* plus heat at ECR. This even included a 50min session in the afternoon. While I didn't take temps later inspection of the rotors and pads indicated no evidence of overheating and brakes remained solid during both event weekends. I tested this setup with both Gloc R12 and Hawk DTC60 pads without issue.

 

[Fair]

Great posts about ducting feeding the deflectors, and even some home brew designs. I too was extremely skeptical of this deflector working better than a hose feeding ducted backing plate?!



The reality is once you step up to 11" wide wheels on the front of an S197 or S550 (and if you want to go fast, you have to), this is what happens, above. At steering lock the hoses get CRUSHED.



Not to mention the fact that corrugated, flexible brake duct hose flows TERRIBLY. There is a 1" boundary layer near the inside hose surface that stalls out airflow. Ask anyone in aerodynamics who has studied this. These *corrugated hoses massively restrict airflow when compared to smooth bore hose (edited!).



I got so tired of replacing these hoses that we tried this oval 4" pipe, to try to sneak a smooth bore section of tubing in there near the tire. On my first session on track with these I ripped one CLEAN OFF. You can't fit a tube into the shape of NOTHING - and at aggressive steering angles that's what is left between the wheel and frame.



Luckily Marco Garcia (former Ford engineer who oversaw final testing and tweaks to the PP package on the 2015 GT) saw our struggles and pushed us in the right direction. He and his team spent a lot of time developing the ducted tunnels in the PP1 undertray + the small plastic brake cooling deflectors on the PP1 control arms. And they got rid of the dumb inverted hat rotors on the base GT / Ecoboost.



He suggested taking what Ford did and just making it bigger. Our first version (above left) was 50% bigger than the OEM design. Our 2nd revision was more than 100% bigger (above right).



Ford's component clearance rules just wouldn't allow them to use anything this big for the deflector - as we maximized the size of the deflector to fit inside an 18x11" wheel. No snow chain use with these installed!



Even after seeing how much better the brakes cooled with the bigger deflectors using the 2018 PP1 undertray tunnels, I was still skeptical. I wanted more! So we re-purposed our 4" oval brake cooling inlets in the lower grill...



And we ran this smooth bore 4" hose (read: expensive!) to a gap in the fender liner, pointing right at the deflectors. Didn't make a lick of difference.



Eventually we just let the tunnels and deflectors do their work. We had a lot of laps at COTA braking from 150 mph into T12 and smaller/lighter cars were always shocked when we would pass them under braking in a 3800 pound Mustang (*with driver).



We data logged a lot of 1.4g stops and pad + rotor wear only got better after the upgrade from our 4" ducted cooling to the mega-sized deflector/tunnel solution.



The 2015-17 PP1 undertray tunnels (see above) ARE considerably smaller in depth to the 2018+ versions (shown at the top of this thread), so on those cars... maybe some supplemental cooling by way of a forward facing brake duct inlet and SMOOTH BORE 3-4" hoses pointing to the edge of the fender liner at the deflectors would work better.



We have since released deflector designs for the S197 (left) and BMW E46 M3 (right), but they DO need more airflow directed to work well - either smooth bore hose or a tunnel.



We haven't stopped developing and are now working on a few variations of tunnels to add to the S197, E46, and other cars to get more airflow to the deflectors. I will share more soon when some testers report back to us!

Thanks,
Terry @ Vorshlag

 

[Grant 302]

Not to mention the fact that corrugated, flexible brake duct hose flows TERRIBLY. There is a 1" boundary layer near the inside hose surface that stalls out airflow. Ask anyon in aerodynamics who has studied this. These hoses KILL airflow.

FWIW, I don’t quite agree with this part. Hoses, pipes have rather finite limitations in this application. Mostly based on the physical properties related to size.

I get your point...but it would be more accurate to say they ‘limit the airflow’ or ‘reduce potential airflow’ or something more along those lines.

Oh, and carry on...just don’t see the haters!

 

[Fair]

FWIW, I don’t quite agree with this part. Hoses, pipes have rather finite limitations in this application. Mostly based on the physical properties related to size.

I get your point...but it would be more accurate to say they ‘limit the airflow’ or ‘reduce potential airflow’ or something more along those lines.

Oh, and carry on...just don’t see the haters!

Well... I may be using a bit of hyperbole, but if you do testing on the common corrugated hose vs smooth bore I think you will be shocked.

 

[xr7]

Great posts about ducting feeding the deflectors, and even some home brew designs. I too was extremely skeptical of this deflector working better than a hose feeding ducted backing plate?!

View attachment 59376

The reality is once you step up to 11" wide wheels on the front of an S197 or S550 (and if you want to go fast, you have to), this is what happens, above. At steering lock the hoses get CRUSHED.

View attachment 59377

Not to mention the fact that corrugated, flexible brake duct hose flows TERRIBLY. There is a 1" boundary layer near the inside hose surface that stalls out airflow. Ask anyon in aerodynamics who has studied this. These hoses KILL airflow.

View attachment 59378

I got so tired of replacing these hoses that we tried this oval 4" pipe, to try to sneak a smooth bore section of tubing in there near the tire. On my first session on track with these I ripped one CLEAN OFF. You can't fit a tube into the shape of NOTHING - and at aggressive steering angles that's what is left between the wheel and frame.

View attachment 59379

Luckily Marco Garcia (former Ford engineer who oversaw final testing and tweaks to the PP package on the 2015 GT) saw our struggles and pushed us in the right direction. He and his team spent a lot of time developing the ducted tunnels in the PP1 undertray + the small plastic brake cooling deflectors on the PP1 control arms. And they got rid of the dumb inverted hat rotors on the base GT / Ecoboost.

View attachment 59380View attachment 59381

He suggested taking what Ford did and just making it bigger. Our first version (above left) was 50% bigger than the OEM design. Our 2nd revision was more than 100% bigger (above right).

View attachment 59382

Ford's component clearance rules just wouldn't allow them to use anything this big for the deflector - as we maximized the size of the deflector to fit inside an 18x11" wheel. No snow chain use with these installed!

View attachment 59383View attachment 59384

Even after seeing how much better the brakes cooled with the bigger deflectors using the 2018 PP1 undertray tunnels, I was still skeptical. I wanted more! So we re-purposed our 4" oval brake cooling inlets in the lower grill...

View attachment 59385View attachment 59386

And we ran this smooth bore 4" hose (read: expensive!) to a gap in the fender liner, pointing right at the deflectors. Didn't make a lick of difference.

View attachment 59387

Eventually we just let the tunnels and deflectors do their work. We had a lot of laps at COTA braking from 150 mph into T12 and smaller/lighter cars were always shocked when we would pass them under braking in a 3800 pound Mustang (*with driver).

View attachment 59388

We data logged a lot of 1.4g stops and pad + rotor wear only got better after the upgrade from our 4" ducted cooling to the mega-sized deflector/tunnel solution.

View attachment 59389View attachment 59390

The 2015-17 PP1 undertray tunnels (see above) ARE considerably smaller in depth to the 2018+ versions (shown at the top of this thread), so on those cars... maybe some supplemental cooling by way of a forward facing brake duct inlet and SMOOTH BORE 3-4" hoses pointing to the edge of the fender liner at the deflectors would work better.

View attachment 59391View attachment 59392

We have since released deflector designs for the S197 (left) and BMW E46 M3 (right), but they DO need more airflow directed to work well - either smooth bore hose or a tunnel.

View attachment 59393

We haven't stopped developing and are now working on a few variations of tunnels to add to the S197, E46, and other cars to get more airflow to the deflectors. I will share more soon when some testers report back to us!

Thanks,
Terry @ Vorshlag

Terry, Thanks for keeping us S197 fans in the game. I'm interested in the tunnels for a new splitter I'm going to build. More winter mods to do.

 

[Grant 302]

Well... I may be using a bit of hyperbole, but if you do testing on the common corrugated hose vs smooth bore I think you will be shocked.

I wouldn’t be surprised. Actual engineer with actual testing equipment for aero stuff. I have more of these in the car.





I do have 3” hose and fittings for both as well as aluminum sections for the s/c system that I fabricated for my ‘00 GT a while back. Just not thinking I’d want to hack off short sections of the 3 foot length ducts to test. I don’t have comparable lengths for the smooth silicone or aluminum.

 

[PatientZero]

I wouldn’t be surprised. Actual engineer with actual testing equipment for aero stuff. I have more of these in the car.



View attachment 59400

I do have 3” hose and fittings for both as well as aluminum sections for the s/c system that I fabricated for my ‘00 GT a while back. Just not thinking I’d want to hack off short sections of the 3 foot length ducts to test. I don’t have comparable lengths for the smooth silicone or aluminum.

Pshh, I have photoshop too...

 

[Grant 302]

Pshh, I have photoshop too...

Haha. Ok. Lemme see you fake the pink reflection on something.

I’m already going take some flak for using wifey’s post-its being too lazy to get my own.

 

[bob]

This can be a really easy DIY project but Don't do it! Just buy them from Vorschlag unlesss you like working for $1/hr. I'm racing this week on a track with 1 big braking zone perfect to try out the big brake deflectors. I would not get the Vorschlag deflectors in time so I just made my own from aluminum scrap laying around my garage. How hard can it be just 1 bend, 3 holes off a cardboard pattern that works for both sides if you flip it over? It looks totally easy until you have to test fit your creation a number of times easiiest with wheel on and off the car a couple times then hand trimming for clearance but not too much to get max flow capturing. Sounds easy and it is but it is tedious and just not worth your time. So don't be last minute like me just buy them from Vorschalg.

 

[Orion159]

@Fair Any update on S197 tunnels for the deflectors? I am ready for you guys to take my money when they are done!

 

[Coz]

Vorshlag S197 Brake Cooling Deflector Kit

Vorshlag has offered "ducted hose" style brake cooling backing plates, inlet ducts, and tubing for a number of cars for many years - and we still do. This is how everyone cooled the brakes for track use for many decades. Well there are issues doing that, namely the corrugated hose has some...

vorshlag-store.com

 

[Orion159]

Vorshlag S197 Brake Cooling Deflector Kit

Vorshlag has offered "ducted hose" style brake cooling backing plates, inlet ducts, and tubing for a number of cars for many years - and we still do. This is how everyone cooled the brakes for track use for many decades. Well there are issues doing that, namely the corrugated hose has some...

vorshlag-store.com

I was referring to the tunnels required to get air to the deflectors, rather than the deflectors themselves.

 

[Coz]

My apologies. I didn't catch that.

 

[Grant 302]

@Fair Any update on S197 tunnels for the deflectors? I am ready for you guys to take my money when they are done!

FWIW, any tunnels will do, for brake cooling purposes.

Just mount them the right way.