I Crashed Today at Roebling

[mavisky]

One of the traits I have to work to keep in check with this new hobby is my desire to push myself to the limit. I don't find myself being sucked in to overdriving due to trying to chase faster drivers or get separation from someone behind me, but I am constantly trying to push myself to improve each section of the track based on what I did the previous laps. The issue is sometimes driving beyond my abilities, which in this case did bite me. It is a fight to keep myself from pushing too hard on the track.

This is one of the reasons I stick to Autocross for the time being. I know this same drive. It's much easier to blow past the limits in an autocross and recover safely.

In watching the video the very first thing I thought was that you were way off line early in that corner. At that point assume that lap is scrapped and cut bait and bail on the lap time. If you'd dumped out of the throttle harder and earlier you could have tucked the front back in line before you got so wide.

Once you were out wide I totally understand the natural instinct to want to keep the car on the pavement, even though the safest avenue of escape is probably pushing wide into the grass and gradually bringing it back to the pavement. You're on treaded tires so not like you'll skate like you're on slicks. Then you either consciously or subconsciously got out of the gas which is what started the rear moving. Once that happened the inputs were too slow on the wheel. Your thinking of "pointing the wheels down the straight" were mostly correct, but you have to counteract the rotation first and that can take a quick "over reaction" input on the wheel to get that started before you can then point the car the right way.

As you build your way back to the track I'd find an autocross or two to run to push your car past the limit and understand how to handle that. This was a relatively "loose" first run at one of our events, but you can see how fast I have to move with my hands to either unwind understeer and regain movement in the proper direction. The same with oversteer as you can see me "over correct" for a split second to try and stop the progression of the rotation and then dialing it back to where I want to go.

 

[KazarS197]

I'm kinda with @GAR944 about the 19 second mark and a tad earlier. Looks and dounds like at the 13 second mark with the tires already sounding off pretty good, the position of the steering wheel and position of the car way outside and still having to maintain any type of line there wasn't much else going to happen other than a full clutch / brake attempt to stop , try to straighten her out for a controlled off track or attempt to drive it out and spin. Came in a little hot, the 340tw's didn't like it and were overdriven. 200 and 340s are a completely different animal. Changing treadwear and narrower widths would get me in trouble By thinking the car is going to do one the and it's nothing close. Live and learn. Glad you are ok and sorry about the damage. I'm not nearly as experienced as everyone else that has commented so might be just seeing in a simpler way. If someone thinks I'm completely off base correct me.

 

[JAJ]

I appreciate all the advice, and I do think both additional professional instruction as well as practice on a skid pad would be very beneficial. Regarding the Catalyst showing the times, that is one thing I can honestly say I never look at during the driving sessions. It does change from red to green based on whether the current lap is better or worse, and I can see that, but I have never looked down while driving to see any numbers. The Catalyst does announce the lap time after each lap is finished, so that obviously plays into my desire to push. It may be a wise at this stage of my skill level to not have it announce the lap times. Thank you for the suggestion.

The pro instruction thing is really helpful. When I started HPDE back 20 odd years ago, the club I was with had a pro race driver training company run the events and the training. Classroom time, coaching on track, a whole bunch of useful stuff in addition to the mechanics of keeping your car on track. For track work, they emphasized "end-to-end balance" in the car. We were taught that acceleration shifts weight and traction to the rear while braking shifts weight and traction to the front.

The track we learned at had a sweeper corner a bit like the one you went off at, with walls on both sides of the track. They emphasized that if we ran out of traction on exit, the biggest risk was hitting the inside wall, not the (much closer) outside wall. The basic survival message was "use front-rear balance control through the throttle pedal to maintain traction at both ends until you're clear of the corner". And that was it. If the front starts sliding while you're still pointed at the outer wall, ease up on the throttle just enough to bring traction to the front to get to the exit without letting the back end get loose. The thing they also talked about was what choice to make if that doesn't work. The point was that you and your car would suffer less damage if you plowed sideways off track to the outside (even if there's a wall there) than you would have if the car rotated (as yours did) and hit the inside wall at a much steeper angle.

 

[302BOB]

An incident/mishap at the track or in real life stuff brings you back to reality in a hurry!!!!!.....I KNOW!!!!! ...........it makes you think about what you did wrong, so you would never do that again!!!!!!!!!.............Educating yourself is the best plan of attack!!!!! Learn all about the ins and outs of the corners when to put the pedal down or lift......that comes with seat time my friend................a well seasoned seat is a well seasoned driver...........................Hell Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..

 

[honeybadger]

argh - sorry to see this.

I agree with what's been said - def too much steering angle in it for too long. that's the car telling you that you don't have the grip, so you need to back off or try to get the fronts gripped up again.

my first thought on the rear was that you got into the marbles with the rears and they rotated the car and it happened fast because of how much angle you had in the front.

Glad to hear you're alright!

 

[67GTA]

Lots of good dialogue here, but wanted to add a discussion point. Several mentions of going 2 feet in and snap oversteer from the throttle lift. Do those same rules apply with the 10-speed? I mean literally you can’t go 2 feet in, but is best practice to stand on the brakes at the same point you would go 2-in on a manual? Would an auto car react differently to throttle lift? Just curious because most of the advise is based on driving a manual.

 

[GAR944]

Lots of good dialogue here, but wanted to add a discussion point. Several mentions of going 2 feet in and snap oversteer from the throttle lift. Do those same rules apply with the 10-speed? I mean literally you can’t go 2 feet in, but is best practice to stand on the brakes at the same point you would go 2-in on a manual? Would an auto car react differently to throttle lift? Just curious because most of the advise is based on driving a manual.

The term "snap" oversteer from throttle lift is a bit simple in its description. A "sudden rapid" input from the driver at the limit of tyre grip is the cause, whether that be throttle or brake. In this situation there wasn't really a sudden lift, but enough lift to transfer weight forward onto overturned understeering front tyres to cause them to grip up while taking weight off the rear tyres. Neither would normally cause issue as you do that naturally through a corner trying to find the most grip. Caveat being at much lower slip angles and constantly adjusting weight forwards and backwards to maintain balance rather than trying to recover an already out of control car. However with a car understeering that significantly on the outside edge of the track it becomes the straw that broke the camels back. Driver training exercise i have done, wet surface with a lane of cones marked out with an opening exit to the side, come in at 40mph and slam the brakes and lock the wheels, turn the steering towards the exit, as you slide down the lane gently release the brake pedal enough to unlock the wheels at the exit and the car absolutely launches out the exit way faster than you would have thought you could steer on a wet surface. Fundamentally this is what has happened with the forward weight transfer.
Auto or manual makes no significant difference, we are talking throttle application transferring weight rearwards and lifting will move it forward.
In my opinion, WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS, brakes as hard as possible to take as much speed out of a possible impact as early as possible. The biggest difference is between abs and non-abs cars. As i mentioned first up, iv'e never had to do it in an abs car, turn into the rotation as the wheels won't lock and slide in a straight line so you are trying to contain the cars rotation to a small an area as possible. Its what i was taught at driving courses. That and nothing seems to stops faster than a car sideways with all four tyres locked. Would love to hear from someone who has spun and abs equipped car on a solid surface, not grass, to confirm exactly how it behaved.

 

[bnight]

Lots of good dialogue here, but wanted to add a discussion point. Several mentions of going 2 feet in and snap oversteer from the throttle lift. Do those same rules apply with the 10-speed? I mean literally you can’t go 2 feet in, but is best practice to stand on the brakes at the same point you would go 2-in on a manual? Would an auto car react differently to throttle lift? Just curious because most of the advise is based on driving a manual.

I think we should start by looking into the corner entry he didn't lift going into the corner 12-13 sec into the video which means the weight was shifted backwards from the get go in fact he continue to accelerate 96 to 98 mph and at corner entry the Auto shifted itself from 6th to 7th probably causing a little tire slip at the rear just enough to upset the balance of the weight which was already shifted backwards that even caused him to add a bit more lock and the tires started screaming.

So to me the obvious mistake is not lifting a bit prior to corner entry allowing the car to have some front balance instead what it looks like is he stayed on the gas. Now since this is staggered setup 255/275 the car will have a natural tendency to understeer and going close to full throttle into a corner without lifting is bound to end on the outside edge on track. An experienced driver would have lifted before corner entry or unwind the wheel and lift when the tire start screaming (14 seconds) he did exactly the opposite lifted but added more steering lock (up to 17 seconds he is adding steering lock) which send him way off the line.

At end of 17 sec you can hear the brakes as he try to unwind the wheel so the car shifted all of it's balance to the front on the already suffering tires. And left the rears without any weight on them aka spinning.

And by that point he is correcting the slide but instead of roll back on throttle (18 sec) to be able to catch it he is still on the brakes (which is noticed by the drop in speed he added over 1 turn of steer lock steering wheel upside down (20 sec) in the left direction again the auto is down shifting to 6th (20 sec) trying to prevent the engine from stalling at that point he is a passenger.

However as others pointed out there were some other things going on like this is lap 7 so tires are probably overheating. He is already down 0.3s so at that point instead of charging the last corner he should have cooled down the car. Etc.

We all did this mistakes when we started learning on track with Mustangs I vividly remember one rainy day at my local track that I was determined to improve the landscaping of the place literally going through all the possible grass have some great photos somewhere. But this Auto surely played a huge role in that particular crash.

 

[blacksheep-1]

@GAR944 in the colonies we call them autocross courses. ( parking lot racers where you can learn relatively safely)

FWIW when learning a new track I early apex everything until I feel more comfortable

Dont do that, late apex everything until you feel more comfortable

 

[bnight]

@GAR944 in the colonies we call them autocross courses. ( parking lot racers where you can learn relatively safely)
FWIW, whenI go to a new track, I early apex everything, until you feel more comfortable .

that is exactly the opposite of what you should do on a new track you should late apex everything to not run out of room on the exits.

 

[blacksheep-1]

that is exactly the opposite of what you should do on a new track you should late apex everything to not run out of room on the exits.

Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant, let me put it in correct words, you should " arch it off" so you have plenty of room on exit.
When I try to get artsy fartsy and too far from my redneck roots, I make mistakes

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Not sure I agree with either of you as I always studied the track in my head or during a classroom , then drove at a reasonable speed, initially, to focus on the correct apex for each corner. With on camber, off camber, downhill and uphill turns a set method of early apex or late apex cornering negates the fact that these habits fail to address the main focus of learning the correct line.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Not sure I agree with either of you as I always studied the track in my head or during a classroom , then drove at a reasonable speed, initially, to focus on the correct apex for each corner. With on camber, off camber, downhill and uphill turns a set method of early apex or late apex cornering negates the fact that these habits fail to address the main focus of learning the correct line.

When I ran laydown karts at Roebling it was flat out for 45 minutes. Lots of fun, but a totally different line
I think what @bnight and I are trying to say is run laps conservatively and allow plenty of room for mistakes while you work your way into the groove, or line, or whatever you call it

 

[Bill Pemberton]

I was commenting on GAR944 and bnight, but you typed faster than me,ha. Of course I was politely commenting as I like bnight and GAR alot -- they are great contributors and sicko trackrats. Anyway, BS1, your backwoods bumpkin theories may be the best and I can say that with all humor, since I was born in Florida not far from your current abode.

 

[302BOB]

Bill makes a lot of sense here..............doing a little Homework/studying before you take that big test never hurt anybody.................

 

[GAR944]

Bill makes a lot of sense here..............doing a little Homework/studying before you take that big test never hurt anybody.................

Always up for a track walk when available, even after track close in the afternoon. Can get to study what curbs and bumps look like up close and personal. Get to stand and look uptrack and see where the line is. Way nicer than flying past going crap missed it while learning a new one.

 

[GJarrett]

Late to the party here.... I'm just a middlin' intermediate HPDE driver and always taking every opportunity available to learn. This is a good thread for me; thank you @krisk for posting it and thank you to all of the experienced drivers schooling us.

What happened has already been analyzed well by others but I wanted to rephrase what I think I learned watching the video in my own words. If I'm off in my elementary-level analysis, please let me know and school me too. In my older age now I prefer to learn from others' mistakes when I can.... I've spent most of my life learning the hard way on my own.

Going back to my first novice HPDE instructor lessons it was stated countless times ad nauseum "slow in, fast out; fast in, spin out" which is exactly what this looks like to me. The line appears too far left so there's no room there and at 13 seconds he is still full throttle past turn in point and accelerating, pushing too hard, at least a couple car lengths past where I would think the braking zone should have already started. Then at :14 the tires squeal in understeer. One split second reaction time later at :15, the steering wheel is ever-so-slightly turned farther right to try to force it right (instead of straightening a bit to regain grip) causing more understeer which would unweight the rear a bit, and another reaction second later at :16 I am going to assume the reaction was to (finally) lift off the throttle which finished unweighting the rear, and then the car reacted/responded in the next second :17 by doing what it did, and by :18 the driver is just along for the ride.

I think (?) the setup was a wrong line coupled with pushing too hot past the turn in point, and by then the only opportunity to avoid the crash was available during the one or at most two second timeframe between :14 and :15+ which is not enough time to process for drivers (like me) without the instinctive experience to feel the car and "fly the plane" without having to mentally think about it. Seat time, seat time, seat time counts for something. I may also have tried to "wrongly-instinctively" push it harder right at :15 but it looks like the safer play would have been to try to lessen, not increase, the understeer by doing the opposite and slightly straightening the wheel and chance an offroad excursion in the weeds to the left. The only way I see to completely avoid this happening at all would be to remember not to experiment "fast in, spin out" on staggered 340tw tires.

This is all Monday morning quarterbacking at this stage for me but I think this is what I learned from the event and gleaned from others' input here. If I am offbase please help instruct me too. Thanks again for this thread.

 

[krisk]

Late to the party here.... I'm just a middlin' intermediate HPDE driver and always taking every opportunity available to learn. This is a good thread for me; thank you @krisk for posting it and thank you to all of the experienced drivers schooling us.

What happened has already been analyzed well by others but I wanted to rephrase what I think I learned watching the video in my own words. If I'm off in my elementary-level analysis, please let me know and school me too. In my older age now I prefer to learn from others' mistakes when I can.... I've spent most of my life learning the hard way on my own.

Going back to my first novice HPDE instructor lessons it was stated countless times ad nauseum "slow in, fast out; fast in, spin out" which is exactly what this looks like to me. The line appears too far left so there's no room there and at 13 seconds he is still full throttle past turn in point and accelerating, pushing too hard, at least a couple car lengths past where I would think the braking zone should have already started. Then at :14 the tires squeal in understeer. One split second reaction time later at :15, the steering wheel is ever-so-slightly turned farther right to try to force it right (instead of straightening a bit to regain grip) causing more understeer which would unweight the rear a bit, and another reaction second later at :16 I am going to assume the reaction was to (finally) lift off the throttle which finished unweighting the rear, and then the car reacted/responded in the next second :17 by doing what it did, and by :18 the driver is just along for the ride.

I think (?) the setup was a wrong line coupled with pushing too hot past the turn in point, and by then the only opportunity to avoid the crash was available during the one or at most two second timeframe between :14 and :15+ which is not enough time to process for drivers (like me) without the instinctive experience to feel the car and "fly the plane" without having to mentally think about it. Seat time, seat time, seat time counts for something. I may also have tried to "wrongly-instinctively" push it harder right at :15 but it looks like the safer play would have been to try to lessen, not increase, the understeer by doing the opposite and slightly straightening the wheel and chance an offroad excursion in the weeds to the left. The only way I see to completely avoid this happening at all would be to remember not to experiment "fast in, spin out" on staggered 340tw tires.

This is all Monday morning quarterbacking at this stage for me but I think this is what I learned from the event and gleaned from others' input here. If I am offbase please help instruct me too. Thanks again for this thread.

Thanks for the feedback, and I’m glad someone can learn from my mistake. I would have much rather watched someone else’s video of this happening.

I’ve watched the video multiple times, and my analysis hasn’t much changed. Bottom line, it was driver error with a few bad decisions followed by not reacting in the best way. I am of the opinion my line approaching the turn, speed, throttle, and turn in point were all appropriate IF… I was running my 295 square 200TW setup. All of that was working on the previous laps even with the 275 front 340TW tires, but in retrospect I shouldn’t have been running that hard with that setup even before I started losing grip. Once I noticed the loss of grip earlier in the lap, I should have backed off significantly. That was my primary mistake. I pushed harder than I should have knowing I didn’t have the same traction as before. This is a very fast corner and I’ve not heard any instructors saying to brake before turning in. It’s generally a maintenance throttle into the turn.

The realization of a problem was almost immediately after I turned in because I felt the understeer that had not been there on previous laps. I should have unwound the steering and eased off the throttle to regain grip, even if I ended up running off the left side into the grass. Anyway, lesson learned, and I’m glad to be able to give some examples of what not to do. LOL

 

[bnight]

Thanks for the feedback, and I’m glad someone can learn from my mistake. I would have much rather watched someone else’s video of this happening.

I’ve watched the video multiple times, and my analysis hasn’t much changed. Bottom line, it was driver error with a few bad decisions followed by not reacting in the best way. I am of the opinion my line approaching the turn, speed, throttle, and turn in point were all appropriate IF… I was running my 295 square 200TW setup. All of that was working on the previous laps even with the 275 front 340TW tires, but in retrospect I shouldn’t have been running that hard with that setup even before I started losing grip.

It would be great if you can post a 200TW tire lap as well so we can see what the actual difference in the car behaviour was.

 

[krisk]

It would be great if you can post a 200TW tire lap as well so we can see what the actual difference in the car behaviour was.

Here’s a video of my best lap from 8/29/29 on the 200TW tires. Around 1:06 of this video is about the same position on the track as where the crash video started.