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S197 2011 Mustang 3.7 Performance Package, Shooting my shot at CAM-C Build Thread Profile - S197 Mustangs

I've heard the Falkens run wide for their size but holy smokes those 315s are meaty! Any comparison shots to the Rivals, Yokos, or stones?

Photo attached with 315 Falken next to 335 BFG, both on 18x12 wheels. A Yokohama 315 on the same wheel is about halfway between these two width wise.



Have guys down the road from me ( Lincoln, Nebraska ) who are good Autocross Friends and they all say the 660 Falkens are a big improvement over the 615, but they are not as quick as the Rival S 1.5, Yokohama A052, or Bridgestone RE71R. Considering that two of these guys are National Champions, the site they and I run is the SCCA Solo Nationals site, that is a fairly credible comparison. But, they also feel the logical next step , since they don't get hot quite as quick as the others, they could be better on a road course? In my experience , talking to racing buddies from around the Country and from some info from Luke Pavlik ( track rat and autocrosser ) at Tire Rack ( ext. #4362 ), there may be some chance this is the case. The A052 is super fast, so is the RE71 and the Rival S 1.5, and the 660 is almost super fast, when viewed in an autocross, but taking in friend's thoughts and listening to Luke, the BFG seems to take longer to get greasy on a road course than the Yoke or B-stones. The Falken seems to be similar ( to the BFGs ) in taking longer to get greasy with guys I know , but the caveat is they are all driving smaller cars.

Hope to hear from our Falken TMO member , but if you go with a 200 TWR tire , I would lean towards the Falken or a BFG Rival 1.5 S. DaveW ( soloperformance.com ) has run BFGs, B-Stones and Yokes on his CAM-C Mustang and not sure if he has hit any road courses, but he might add some thoughts, especially since he is the Clairvoyant that knew the 315 Falkens were already out!!!

Keep in mind, tires that are great on one car may not be advantageous on others ( due to hp, torque, weight, suspensioning, etc. ) and that is part of the reason the more info you get the more you will feel comfortable in your choice. Lastly , driving style also can affect your choice , since some drivers destroy tires rapidly , whereas others seem to get max life out of their rubber donuts, and this is not just an indication of speed or talent. I know some super quick drivers who get one weekend out of a set of Hoosiers, and other speed demons who get 3 weekends and are still as quick - radically different driving style?!

Lastly, listen, listen, listen to others with alot of experience , even if you happen to have extensive track time/autocross time , yourself. Good example was a discussion I had with DaveW of SoloPerformance.com ( and a TMO member above ) awhile back concerning the A052 and the BFG Rival S 1.5s. He mentioned with two drivers the A052s just got too hot during an Autocross event , and he would be switching back to the BFGs. The Yoke might be the ticket for a Miata , but the weight and torque of the Mustang might mean it was not the choice for the bigger car. Another example is the 2nd Place car in B Street at the Nationals, last year , was a Mustang GT 350 on Rivals. The winner was a Tesla, but it was moved subsequently to a faster Class in 2020. The Rivals seem to be a top choice for the CAM-C cars also, as weight and torque/hp determine alot on how quickly a tire gets hot, or too hot.

Lots of ideas from the rambling mind of the Old F.A.R.T. in Nebraska, but I am sure others will chime in and the wonderful thing about TMO is there is a wealth of experience on here ,all willing to assist and help others.

PS - Merry Christmas , everyone!!!

And yet, other fast guys, one who works for Bridgestone, says the RT660 is at least equal to the other top tier tires, if not better. At least on big cars.

No one knows yet, of course. If you look at the Dixie Winter tour results, the 93/193 car was on Falkens and I was (#39) on Saturday. It was VERY cold on Saturday (41 degrees at start and windy) and they were better than BFG would have been in those conditions, but I seriously needed a codriver to make them work. The forecast on Sunday was for similar temps and cloudy, so I switched to my Michelin PS4's and of course it started 5 degrees warmer and got warmer much quicker making it too hot for those. Oh well, I think I improved at least one spot.

Initial impression on the Falken is good, but I need more time, in warmer weather and a chance to play with setup more to see how good. They are not world beaters, but also not slow. They have much better steering response and feedback than BFG or Yokohama, but not RE71 level. Of course, RE71 is discontinued, so it really isn't part of a discussion anyway.

And like you said, it depends on driver, and also event site - Lincoln has some odd properties that other concrete sites don't seem to have. Peru concrete loves the Goodyear SC3 for autocross, but it is not nearly as good elsewhere.

Lots of variables.

DaveW

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Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
5,249
3,697
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Blair, Nebraska
.....and there you go folks, DaveW of Solo Performance Specialties comes through. I have known his family for over 30 years and they have a history in Autocrossing that goes back to the last Century , ha. Dave supplies racing equipment and other expertise at a lot of the SCCA Autocrosses as well as some NASA road race events, so since I run both, glad to have him contributing on TMO.
 
Photo attached with 315 Falken next to 335 BFG, both on 18x12 wheels. A Yokohama 315 on the same wheel is about halfway between these two width wise.





And yet, other fast guys, one who works for Bridgestone, says the RT660 is at least equal to the other top tier tires, if not better. At least on big cars.

No one knows yet, of course. If you look at the Dixie Winter tour results, the 93/193 car was on Falkens and I was (#39) on Saturday. It was VERY cold on Saturday (41 degrees at start and windy) and they were better than BFG would have been in those conditions, but I seriously needed a codriver to make them work. The forecast on Sunday was for similar temps and cloudy, so I switched to my Michelin PS4's and of course it started 5 degrees warmer and got warmer much quicker making it too hot for those. Oh well, I think I improved at least one spot.

Initial impression on the Falken is good, but I need more time, in warmer weather and a chance to play with setup more to see how good. They are not world beaters, but also not slow. They have much better steering response and feedback than BFG or Yokohama, but not RE71 level. Of course, RE71 is discontinued, so it really isn't part of a discussion anyway.

And like you said, it depends on driver, and also event site - Lincoln has some odd properties that other concrete sites don't seem to have. Peru concrete loves the Goodyear SC3 for autocross, but it is not nearly as good elsewhere.

Lots of variables.

DaveW

View attachment 60527


This is why I love this forum!

Thanks Dave for the synopsis of the autocross tire game for end of 2020 into 2021. It's been harder and harder to find reputable information, let alone first hand experience from a S197 autocrosser. Seems like the RT660 might be a good fit for co-driven CAM-C next year with the heavier cars, higher heat tolerance, and the fact that they run "wide" for their size. Looks like they've got quite a few sizes in the pipeline after speaking with Discount Tire Direct (Tirerack still has a limited selection listed at this time).

Looking forward to hearing more of your insights and feedback as the season progresses
 
Small mid winter update:

Progress made on the the junkyard Brembo rebuild. Had a new crossover tube fabricated at a local shop, its not as pretty or tight fitting as OE but I'm hoping it'll do (have to check clearance with the 18's). The rest of the rebuild was straightforward with OP Mustang sourced bits. Unfortunately catastrophe hit during the bleeder replacement with both inner salt crusted bleeders snapping. I've had bleeders break on Subaru's, but these were particularly fubbared despite being doused in Kroil. of course to continue this comedy of errors, the EZ out broke in one😑. Wondering if the PO seriously cranked them down... Oh well.. will be having a friend shop try to save them with the drill/tap before making any tougher decisions
IMG_7242.jpegIMG_7241.jpegIMG_7245.jpeg

On a positive note and continuing the trend of "parts bin special", scored some sweet parts for the budget autocross diff upgrade from the Cortex garage sale. BNIB set of carbon clutch discs and a lightly used 13-14 Track Pack finned rear diff cover. A local autocrosser who runs a wicked patina'd 63 Falcon will be rebuilding the 8.8 Trac-Lok and seems to know how to pack discs to make pretty tight. Out of curiosity, anyone on TMO got any secrets for stacking the clutches/packing on the ol Trac-Lok?
IMG_7254.jpeg
Got a long way to go before the 2021 season commences in March
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
208
209
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
Small mid winter update:

Progress made on the the junkyard Brembo rebuild. Had a new crossover tube fabricated at a local shop, its not as pretty or tight fitting as OE but I'm hoping it'll do (have to check clearance with the 18's). The rest of the rebuild was straightforward with OP Mustang sourced bits. Unfortunately catastrophe hit during the bleeder replacement with both inner salt crusted bleeders snapping. I've had bleeders break on Subaru's, but these were particularly fubbared despite being doused in Kroil. of course to continue this comedy of errors, the EZ out broke in one😑. Wondering if the PO seriously cranked them down... Oh well.. will be having a friend shop try to save them with the drill/tap before making any tougher decisions
View attachment 61088View attachment 61087View attachment 61089

On a positive note and continuing the trend of "parts bin special", scored some sweet parts for the budget autocross diff upgrade from the Cortex garage sale. BNIB set of carbon clutch discs and a lightly used 13-14 Track Pack finned rear diff cover. A local autocrosser who runs a wicked patina'd 63 Falcon will be rebuilding the 8.8 Trac-Lok and seems to know how to pack discs to make pretty tight. Out of curiosity, anyone on TMO got any secrets for stacking the clutches/packing on the ol Trac-Lok?
View attachment 61086
Got a long way to go before the 2021 season commences in March
if you don’t mind me asking where did you pick up the diff cover?? I’ve been looking and it seems like most places are around $200 just wondering u got a better deal.
thanks
 
if you don’t mind me asking where did you pick up the diff cover?? I’ve been looking and it seems like most places are around $200 just wondering u got a better deal.
thanks

Hey, I happened to get lucky and stumbled across the garage sale section of Cortex Racing. Looks like they have 1-2 left back in stock but you'll have to confirm with Filip. Check them out here: https://cortexracing.com/shop/garage-sale/

J
 
50
28
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
New Fairfield, CT
Small mid winter update:

Progress made on the the junkyard Brembo rebuild. Had a new crossover tube fabricated at a local shop, its not as pretty or tight fitting as OE but I'm hoping it'll do (have to check clearance with the 18's). The rest of the rebuild was straightforward with OP Mustang sourced bits. Unfortunately catastrophe hit during the bleeder replacement with both inner salt crusted bleeders snapping. I've had bleeders break on Subaru's, but these were particularly fubbared despite being doused in Kroil. of course to continue this comedy of errors, the EZ out broke in one😑. Wondering if the PO seriously cranked them down... Oh well.. will be having a friend shop try to save them with the drill/tap before making any tougher decisions
View attachment 61088View attachment 61087View attachment 61089

On a positive note and continuing the trend of "parts bin special", scored some sweet parts for the budget autocross diff upgrade from the Cortex garage sale. BNIB set of carbon clutch discs and a lightly used 13-14 Track Pack finned rear diff cover. A local autocrosser who runs a wicked patina'd 63 Falcon will be rebuilding the 8.8 Trac-Lok and seems to know how to pack discs to make pretty tight. Out of curiosity, anyone on TMO got any secrets for stacking the clutches/packing on the ol Trac-Lok?
View attachment 61086
Got a long way to go before the 2021 season commences in March
People who don't know Kroil need to know kroil. The wonderdrug.
 
Another slow mid-winter update:

The lovely weather in NY has kept progress to a minimum... dug her out last night and she's back in action for daily driver duty with Blizzak WS80's mounted up
IMG_7344.jpeg


After countless hours of mental gymnastics of figuring out how to balance the suspension setup for street and autox use I finally ordered the parts from Ground Control to covert my OTS Koni Yellows into coilovers. Using Cortex's street spring rates of 400F/200R as a starting point and playing with their wheel frequency calculator, I settled on 375F and 175R. (If you haven't played with racing aspirations calculator definitely check it out https://cortexracing.com/support/wheel-frequeny-calculator/ )

I inputted the corner weights of the car from last year's alignment, which should give me a wheel frequency of 2.01hz up front and 1.64hz rear. I opted to get longer springs from Ground Control to keep the factory ride height/ground clearance while trying to preserve the factory geometry. Additionally this should keep the Konis within their effective travel range and not have them bottom out as they do with most lowered setups, we will be reusing the custom bumpstops developed by RE suspension last year as well. Finally, I went with the "street" version of GC's camber plates to keep NVH within reason and hope to get ~3 degrees of camber up front.

Picking up an 18mm rear swaybar locally this weekend which should round out the suspension changes for the beginning of the year.

Ordered up some new magnetic numbers from SPS performance, the car's going to have a whole new look this year (Can you guess which vintage Trans-Am car we'll be creating a tribute to?)

Still have to work out a few aspects of the build including:
- Which brake pads to go with on the 4pot brembos
- Determining which size Falkens to run on the 18x10 (285 vs 295), is the 10mm of the 295 worth a 10lb unsprung weight penalty on a car with less that 300wtq? Not to mention the effective gearing/top speed in 2nd gear differences
- Waiting to see what tire sales come up for President's week (has anyone else noticed the price of RT660's is up since the RE-71 got discontinued???)
- Looking for steet-able options for pulling some weight out of the car (class minimum is 3300 w/out driver and the car was 3457 in street trim last year)

Hope y'all are keeping busy on the off season!
-J
 
Just like that, it's March and I'm fighting the clock to get everything ready for NNJR autocross season debut on 3/27... Seems like a perennial struggle. It was still too cold for me to autocross with the local PCA on 3/7, but my father has offered me a co-drive in his GTI for this Sunday's event which is tempting if the temps hit the high 50's as projected.

Was finally able to tackle the install of the goodies I've been amassing all winter this past weekend in phase one of the 2021 CAM-C prep: Rear suspension

The plan for rear suspension setup of the car is fairly simple to start: Whiteline adjustable Panhard bar, Whiteline adjustable trailing arms, 20mm rear swaybar, Ford Racing bumpstops, Vorshlag rear tow hooks, Ground Control Coilovers and reusing the Koni Yellows from last year
IMG_7530.jpeg

After playing around with the car on the Quickjacks I was able to execute most of the above mods with the usual drama that I've come to expect working on 10+ year old cars that have lived in the Northeast. Nothing the good old fashion death wheel can't fix...
IMG_7533.jpeg


At the end of the day everything was completed except for the install of the GC Coilovers sleeves as I didn't love the fitment in the rear spring perch, so I left the Boss 302 springs in for the time being as I was planning on running the same height/geometry anyway. I'll revisit this as the season progresses and I have more time on my hands

Initial impressions of the Whiteline rear suspension components was definitely positive. I matched the length of both the trailing arms and Panhard bar to the stock components as I'm looking to keep all the geometry simple. Car feels more composed/tighter, wheel hop has been mitigated (at least on snow tires), and the ride quality has actually improved. None of this should be surprising as the rear trailing arm bushings were completely torn from the control arms on the body side. Explains some of the issues we were having last year in DS for sure

Over the next two week's I'm hoping to complete Phase 2: Brakes & Phase 3: Front Coil over conversion/Camber plate install

Oh and one more thing, I finally caved and picked up a used set of 18x11s from a member on TMO. Hopefully 315's give this underpowered car a fighting chance on a local/regional level
Screen Shot 2021-03-16 at 7.27.30 PM.png


IMG_7533.jpeg
 
love that first gen crx in the backround

Thanks for the kind words, she's finally in a garage after many years of sitting on the street/driveway at my parents house as a mobile parts shed. Absolutely love the car and I could never sell it but, due to the lack of aftermarket support these days, she's been retired from autocross duties for the time being (formerly CSP, now would technically be an FSP car). Shame it's nearly impossible to get rebuild parts of the period correct Mugen bits (especially LSD parts). Just for shits and gigs here a pic in it's former glory with 13x8.5 Kaiser race wheels and Khumho v710s next to my father's former b16 turbo swapped 1st gen crx

tempImageAn9led.png
 
My god that is awsome! I grew up loving Honda’s and going to king motorsports to drool over all the mugen goodness. I actually help a buddy out who races in champ car with a 89 crx and 90 hatch I’ll try and get some pics the next time I’m over there welding.
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
208
209
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
Reminds me of the car Jesse Lipscher from Westchester Sports Car Club had in the 90's. Though I think he used the Street Prepared update/backdate rule to put the Si drivetrain into the lighter HF body.
 

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