Autocrossing tips??

[Bill Pemberton]

Pretty blessed in this part of the Country as just down the road in Lincoln , Nebraska is the site for the Solo II Nationals and Pro Solo Finals ( Lincoln Air Park ). The Nebraska Region of the SCCA had it's first Points event there this past Sunday , and though the Boss showed itself quite well against a Nationally competitive Mustang Cobra ( he ended up 2nd and I ended up 6th in the PAX index out of 91 cars ), I also realized there are alot of questions I wouldn't be able to get a direct answer on, as there aren't alot of Boss 302s around the US. I was hoping that this thread might get the few drivers who are going to Solo II /Autocross events to chime in on what they found worked the best, what was useless, and any tips they may have found running the Boss.

Observations at the event was that I appeared woefully undertired with virtually everyone running at least 295s all the way around , and a couple running 315s all the way around. Whereas it appears most everyone is recommending stagger for road course use, the autocross guys are going 100% squared. Since I want to primarily run at the track I was also running R6 Hoosiers. The only real mods to the car , at present , are a set of MM Camber/caster plates ( got 2.7 degrees negative camber on both sides up front) , MGW short throw shift kit, Enkei PF01s with 275 and 295 R6 Hoosiers mounted front to rear. With the shocks set at 5 in the front and 3 in the rear, I had virtually no push and the rear end was just a little loose ( which is how I personally like it ). The course was of National caliber, with me hitting the rev limiter , briefly, twice in second gear on my best run.

Other than that, I do realize I need to get my pads in, and make some other minor changes , as this will be my car's secondary usage, after track events, but sure would like to hear from some of you who have been autocrossing already to share ideas/successes.

Thanks,

Bill Pemberton
Blair, Nebraska

 

[Boss_302]

Start here.

http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7806

Not a Boss but most of the data is relevant.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

We do a ton of Motion Control Suspensions here, and I already have MM Camber/Caster plates, installed. The Motorsports Mgr here at Woodhouse Auto Family is likely one of the better autocross set up guys in the US , as he ran a Nationally Competitive Mustang for years ( in fact the car that beat me on Sunday ) until selling it around 4 years ago. I on the other hand am alot less technical and am looking more for just grassroot ideas guys have had at events. Things like tire pressure that works the best, adjustments/settings on the shocks, if they have gone to a squared tire set-up ,etc.

Thanks for your input, and my apologies for not being more specific, but as I will be setting up my car primarily for track, just really looking for some of the little things guys have found out from a practical standpoint.

 

[adam81]

I am by know means an expert so if I am off on something here someone please correct me. I am a road course guy, but would really like to do an autox event just to try it......it's all about seat time! I have been reading up on it and I second the Vorshlag blog. There is a ton of great information in there for beginners and experienced guys alike.

First thing is to get the rule book and become familiar with it. You can download this off of the SCCA website. Use the rulebook to pick what class you want to run in and see what mods you can do before being bumped up to the next class....or two. The rulebook is your bible.....it tells you most everything you can and can't do.....sometimes you need to read between the lines.

Tires - The bigger the tire generally the better assuming compound is the same. You want a tire that does not require a lot of heat, or any, to function properly. Most courses are very short time wise and there just isn't enough run time to build heat into a tire. Generally a max summer performance tire is good. Then there are specific tires made for autox like the Hoosier A6. I don't know much on what tires and compounds are good for autox so hopefully someone else can chime in.

Brake Pads - would be something that doesn't need much heat to operate properly. A good street performance pad would be ideal. Maybe something like Hawk HPS. There are a lot of options out there.

Really the best thing to do for autox is go to an event and jump right in feet first (be warned this is not necessarily true for road course). Autox are generally very cheap to do and a ton of fun! You will learn a lot of technical things like suspension, driving techniques, tires, brakes, etc. To start having good pads and tires is all you need. Once you learn a few things like what the car does that you don't like, what the car does that you do like, how you prefer a car to handle......you enjoy the sport.....then start worrying about buying parts and spending money on the car. The best mod you do is to the driver......by getting seat time.

Here are a few good sources to help you on your way to being the next champion:

http://www.scca.com/
http://www.scca.com/solo/

http://www.goaheadtakethewheel.com/
http://www.goaheadtakethewheel.com/autocross/autox.php

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Sorry guys, but my intent here was not to get overly technical at all, just to hear some minor successes from those Autocrossing and what some guys are doing. The gentlemen in charge of our Motorsports Dept. is likely as skilled as Vorschlag in setting up a car for pure Solo II , but I am not looking for that detailed a set up. I am more interested in just seeing what folks are doing that is realitively inexpensive and as I am setting the car up for road courses I was looking for minor data like what tire pressures were working with R6s for example.

My apologies for being so vague, and thanks for the advice, but I was looking for just practical experiences from those on the Forum and what they were doing. I realize I should be using A6 compounding , and I did notice folks were using larger rubber already, but as I have a main interest in track events this was just started in an attempt to get folks to chat about what they had found when at an Autocross.

I should preface this that I helped start a region for the SCCA that used to hold the SCCA Solo II Nationals, and have quite a few State, Divisional Championships and National placings, but have mainly spent the last 10 years with a National Competition License with SCCA. I poorly conveyed the idea that it might be nice to have folks chat about their successes and the items that worked for them -- just trying to get a minor dialogue ,as most folks will not be getting as heavily into mods like many do ( myself included) on this site.

Example ;

In chatting with some of the guys I know well at the last event I found out that the Hoosiers work pretty good at around 42 front , cold, and 38 in the rear ( cold ). Interesting to me as this is not too far in the front on what one wants the same tires hot off the track.
Since the gentleman that told me this ran 5th out of 91 cars using the PAX system, and I ran 6th, with virtually no push , it seemed to be a tiny tidbit to pass on to others running on concrete. If someone else was running on a slick asphalt surface he may find a different variant on tire pressure.

There is a ton of info , and most is very good, for track rats, and my attempt here was to try and get a bit more dialogue amongst ourselves. I have chatted with old colleagues like Sam Strano and Mark Jorgensen, and am looking more for just comments amongst ourselves and not really a treatise from a company trying to sell it's products ( no offense,please).

 

[El Jefe]

Terry's article is a good read but he's basically trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. He really needs to focus on ESP and quit playing around in ST.

I'm no Andy Hollis at an autox but I've got a few laps under my belt. The first thing I noticed when autoxing my boss was a lack of front tire. I guess that's why square tire set-ups are so popular. Also, the Pirellis feel like a discarded condom compared to the Bridgestone RE01s I ran on my STi.

My fastest consistent times have come from running in sport mode but on a tight course I think I'll run with all the band-aids turned off. The car is wide and heavy and will never have the grace of an S2000. So use what it does best, put down power on the straights.

I'm running the stock dampers at 5 all the way around and adjusting tire pressure to control rotation. For the Pirellis I start with 36 psi for the front/rear and back off the rear pressure as needed. I just mounted some Yokohama AD08s yesterday and will have some feedback in a couple weeks.

As I said earlier, I'm no ringer and I'm always open to constructive criticism if it helps me go faster.

 

[VoodooBoss]

Terry's article is a good read but he's basically trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. He really needs to focus on ESP and quit playing around in ST.

I'm no Andy Hollis at an autox but I've got a few laps under my belt. The first thing I noticed when autoxing my boss was a lack of front tire. I guess that's why square tire set-ups are so popular. Also, the Pirellis feel like a discarded condom compared to the Bridgestone RE01s I ran on my STi.

My fastest consistent times have come from running in sport mode but on a tight course I think I'll run with all the band-aids turned off. The car is wide and heavy and will never have the grace of an S2000. So use what it does best, put down power on the straights.

I'm running the stock dampers at 5 all the way around and adjusting tire pressure to control rotation. For the Pirellis I start with 36 psi for the front/rear and back off the rear pressure as needed. I just mounted some Yokohama AD08s yesterday and will have some feedback in a couple weeks.

As I said earlier, I'm no ringer and I'm always open to constructive criticism if it helps me go faster.

I look forward to your feedback on the AD08's

 

[Bill Pemberton]

El Jefe,

Agree on the front tires being too small, and like you I am convinced a bigger tire up front is the way to go, though I will likely stay with the stagger for road course events. Were you still getting push at 36 lbs in the front, and will bet the Yokohamas help a ton. Ran the first event on Corsas and then went to the Hoosiers. On a fairly wide open course I was amazed at how little push I did have, but then I was at 42lbs cold , in front , on the Hoosiers -- and they were rolling over about perfect.

Are you left foot braking, as I went back and forth, but ended up the quickest when I did -- traction control completely off.

 

[adam81]

El Jefe - was your rear end loose? I am expecting with everything turned up that hard in the rear that it would be. Next time you're out try 3, and 4 in the rear and see how you like it. Most people I know run 4 rear, however plenty of people like 3. Just a thought....

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Agree with Adam on the shock stiffness. I am running 3 in the rear, but it is always nice to hear what others have found successful. I figure most of us will be running the stock shocks, so should be good feedback also for the guys running in A Stock.

 

[cloud9]

Agree with Adam on the shock stiffness. I am running 3 in the rear, but it is always nice to hear what others have found successful. I figure most of us will be running the stock shocks, so should be good feedback also for the guys running in A Stock.

Bill - 3 in front and 4 in rear. Worked for me last September Of course now I told the whole world. What's the difference, I'm gonna get my A$$ kicked this year at the Roundup anyway. ;D

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Crap --- I have one autocross on R6 Hoosiers after years of just roadracing, and Gary, who has circumnavigated the Globe 6 times in his Boss and GT 500 has different settings. Looks like I have to go out and play with my shocks in traffic.

Seriously good info as differing views help one change little items that can often have big impacts. Actually I probably should not use the work impact in an automobile forum,ha. With all of Gary's talent and seat time , I will definitely try his settings next time out. The one question I would ask though, is do you left foot brake or not, Gary?

 

[cloud9]

The one question I would ask though, is do you left foot brake or not, Gary?

I can't even chew gum and walk at the same time

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Big whoop, I have to get a tooth pulled and at my age, pretty soon I won't be able to chew gum anyway,ha.

 

[El Jefe]

Adam, I run my dampers at 5/5 on the street and feel like it's the best setup at our autox. It's a very flat surface and I can adjust tire pressure faster than I can adjust my rear shocks (where's my trunk monkey?) With traction control all the way off, I may need to back off the rear shocks a little.

Bill, I had push from 34psi to 40psi in the front. I know it's from over-driving the tires but my foot gets heavy sometimes.

I've got a few miles on the AD08s to get the tires scrubbed and I can already tell that I'll have to play with my setup this weekend. The tires feel so much more responsive than the PZeros.

Also, Vorshlag has done a lot of updates to their Mustang recently and it looks like it will be a beast in ESP.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

El Jefe

Did you stagger the lbs in the tires front to back. Seems the guys running in Lincoln had a 3-4 lb variance front to back. I was running 42 cold in the front, and when running Yokes in the past I found they often needed high pressures up front , even compared to other brands -- you might check with your buds running them.

I left foot brake, so that may cause a bit less push ( less dive on the front) , but appreciate the comments and always good to hear about other rubber, as we have so few choices , tire wise, for the Boss.

 

[JScheier]

Most RWD autox cars run slightly more PSI in the front tires than the rear. Couple of reasons for this:

1. More PSI in the front will help reduce tire roll-over. Most of these cars are nose heavy and McPherson strut derived.... so the front tires take more abuse than the rears. Putting some more air in the fronts will help alleviate some of this. Also, if you are camber challenged (think stock classes), it can help save a tire.

2. Less PSI in the rear can assist with putting power down. At the same time, more PSI in the rear can help the car rotate.

I haven't actually auto-xd the Boss, but I have about 20 years under my belt (and have watched Jorgensen and drooled over his Cobra). I have auto-xd many mustangs at Nationals including the 'Blatantly Illegal Mustang' (named by Dennis Grant) in Street Mod. All of these ran more PSI in the front (3-4 PSI) than the rear. Even in the M3 I ran more PSI front then rear.

Also note that if you are left foot braking, and not doing it correctly, it CAN lead to increased under-steer or push (been there, done that... got the cone ).

I'd get Mark to ride with me and I'd ride with Mark if I had that experience and knowledge available.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

JScheier is correct and a bit more detailed than I was , which is great. He is also right about left foot braking if not done correctly.

The concept , though, once learned and practiced , can , especially with a car like the Boss keep power on, hence squatting the rear end down with the torque, and the braking helps set the turns. Hard to do right , but like track time , autocrossing begs for plenty of seat time.

 

[BossJockey]

I ran my first autocross this weekend. I ran in the AStock class on the factory Pirelli tires. I went with Gary's shock setting of 3/5. That and the Trackey tune seemed to work well to trailing throttle rotate the car. I forgot my air compressor so I had to run 35psi front and rear. It would of helped to have bumped up the fronts 4-5 psi.

Video of my last run. It was a 36.942 which got me 1st in the Rookie Pax times.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JNoOUwEQ-A&feature=plcp[/youtube]

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Thanks for sharing the video and your experience -- you are right about the tires , likely would have been a small benefit to have the fronts up a bit more.