S197 BackInBlack Build Thread Profile - S197 Mustangs

[BackInBlack]

Today I replaced the two downstream O2 sensors and removed the Blowfish Racing bracket. No change to fuel trims. In fact, I've got +10% today. Hopefully the increase is environmental as opposed to a mistake that I made. I even bought a proper O2 sensor socket and torqued it to spec. The only O2 sensor left is bank 1 forward. I didn't have enough time to get to it today but it looks like a b*tch to get to. I think I might just pay someone to do that one. I'll call and try to get an appointment with my local speed shop on Monday... There really isn't much left that I can do myself.

Removing the Blowfish bracket made my shifts slightly more notchy and audible. Which makes sense since I'm now bolted to the chassis. The vibration noise is gone and so far I haven't had any trouble shifting. I'll leave it like this for a while and if I have trouble I'll get the updated MGW probably.

This fuel trim issue is really frustrating. Have a good weekend ya'll.

 

[BackInBlack]

Found a really great local mechanic willing to join the gremlin hunt. He threw the book at it, got great compression test results, all kinds of computer diagnosis, smoke tests, etc. and he says I'm good. I'm satisfied that there's nothing more that I can do. I'll definitely have more confidence in the car now. Will go back to Shaun and see if it's good enough! I do have a local dyno tuner but I'm not sure what I think about him as he seems afraid to mess with my car just b/c it's a swap car. I think I could talk him into it but the fact that he's afraid of a swap car makes me concerned.

 

[BackInBlack]

New symptom, requesting help diagnosing: knock at WOT (+3), excessive oil consumption (1 qt./1k miles), high idle fuel trims (+7% avg.).

Based on recent repairs and some good test results, Shaun at AED allowed me to take a step forward. We did another set of logs and fuel trims are barely passable. But the WOT log revealed a new problem: 3 degrees of positive knock at WOT. Shaun said the ECU is significantly pulling timing because of it. Doesn't happen while daily driving. So I have a new symptom to add to the list:

• High idle fuel trims (+7% on average)
• Excessive oil consumption (1 qt. every 1k miles)
• Knock at WOT (+3 degrees)

I need more help from you TMO geniuses to figure out what it could be! A relative compression test showed the engine within 1% on all cylinders (1, 3, & 6 being 1% lower). These internal components are something I know little about, but I'm thinking, FRPP Camshaft Drive Kit, Valve Springs, and other related while you're in there's like maybe crank and oil pump gears? It'd be tempting to do L&M intake cams but I think I need to prove that my car is running properly in stock form before I can get a tune...

EDIT: I have little idea what I'm doing here, but after some searching it looks like I'm looking to follow in @Mad Hatter's footsteps once again...

My wife is gonna kill me but I'm in too deep to stop now! What do you guys think?

 

[302BOB]

BnB, you made the right choice, I believe that Mechanic will bring peace to your soul!!!

 

[BackInBlack]

Well, scratch that idea. The mechanic I took it to to run all those tests with says he checked cam timing and all that is within spec. He thinks maybe the oil scraper piston rings are gunked up...

 

[BackInBlack]

This new mechanic wants me to try BG Dynamic Engine Restoration Service. He thinks the oil scraper rings might be sludged up. Come to think of it, my main mechanic who helped me build the car recommended I do it as well. Has anyone ever done this? Is it safe in this kind of engine? I think I may try it, I mean after all it is a junkyard engine... I don't have any evidence that it's sludged up at all, but it does have issues and it is possible. What do you guys think of this service?

 

[JDee]

I never had much love for those types of magic treatments. I never used them personally but a friend of mine did. It didn't do any damage but it also didn't appear to do any good. It might be worth a try but I wouldn't expect miracles either.
This was many years ago so it's possible they have made progress on this stuff.

Has your mechanic used it before? If so what was the result?

 

[BackInBlack]

I never had much love for those types of magic treatments. I never used them personally but a friend of mine did. It didn't do any damage but it also didn't appear to do any good. It might be worth a try but I wouldn't expect miracles either.
This was many years ago so it's possible they have made progress on this stuff.

Has your mechanic used it before? If so what was the result?

Yeah, I tend to agree with you @JDee. Both of my mechanics say it works great... there are lots of before and after photos on the internet and those look pretty good. Apparently this process was designed for Audi Diesel engines that were having a lot of service issues and they later put out a kit for gas engines. Most people I see using it either have very high milage cars or they were in a situation where they went too long between oil changes. My situation is different because technically my engine is running within tolerances. It's just not running well enough to push it hard. My guess is I have about a 1/3 shot of it working for me. I don't know if it will solve my issue even if it works well. We've eliminated nearly every possible issue. The process is a little scarey. They put an additive into the fuel, dump the oil and filter and then put in this BG cleaning fluid. They run the car at 3000 RPM for for 45 minutes and then drain the cleaning fluid that will now be black. They swap it for a BG, "rinse" fluid and put on another oil filter and then run it at 3000 RPM for 20 minutes. Finally they drain the rinse fluid and perform a regular oil change with a final additive that goes into the oil.

The kit is available online for about $300 (although I think I'd need 2 of them as the bottles contain 6 qt. each) but I'd need a place to do it that wouldn't mind me smoking up the place and running the engine like that. Mechanic is asking $500, but the price may go up when they learn I need 8.5 quarts, and I'll demand that the right amount is used. BG says to use normal oil capacity.

I looked around to see if this process caused problems for anyone during or afterwards and couldn't find anything really. Some people said it worked great/the car was like new and others said their problems persisted. Most people said it helped at least a little in some way and all of the before and after photos are pretty impressive.

I know that this engine went through several owners. One of the original owners was active online and used it for drag racing. He seems to have pushed the car pretty hard but he also took good care of it. It may have been neglected by subsequent owners who didn't keep it for very long due to the several varying issues it had. All of that was OK with me cause I really only needed the motor and wiring harnesses. All I can say is that the engine air filter (was a paper one) on the thing was pretty nasty. I'd guess it hadn't been changed in 30k miles or more. The old oil didn't look bad. But yeah I've had to rebuild and replace nearly everything else. Really hoping I can keep this motor.

There are stories/videos online of people using this stuff on junkyard motors btw. They all look great but, I wonder if they're sponsored, ya know?

 

[CobaltFilly]

Thanks! Yeah that's one of the great things about it. Each and every part that went into this car was my choice and either I or my mechanic reviewed the condition of everything before it went in. Most of it is stock or stockish but that's how I wanted it. Trying to remain with the original purpose of a street car that can be tracked for fun.

While I did save a little money doing this, I wouldn't recommend it to most people. The amount of time and effort it took makes buying used the more reasonable proposition. But if you LOVE your car like a lot of us on TMO do, and you want to do it, it's pretty cool when it's all over and you're driving it around. And the process will make you an expert on the platform. One other downside in my case is that b/c of the heavy amount of TLC that went into my build, I'm always going to be a little cautious/protective driving it. Trying to slowly break myself out of it but -- after all that work, if something were to happen to it I'd just be crushed. Other things to consider are insurance and resale value. Since my car has a V6 VIN, it'd have to sell for a discount if I were to ever sell it (which I won't). And if I ever sold it to a dealer they'd give me peanuts for it. As for insurance, unless you can live with hardly ever driving the car (track/show only car), you'll have to live with having your car insured as a V6. This means that if the car is totaled you will get royally screwed! My way to deal with it has been to minimize my insurance. In my mind I figure this is my way of insuring it myself.

Your car looks primed to morph into a, "Gotta Have It Green" BOSS 302! Let me know if you need any pointers with your build, or sourcing salvage or parts or anything. But before you do, don't underestimate that 3.7! The 3.7 is a great motor. It's more reliable than the Coyote and will last longer and 300hp is nothing to sneeze at!

Your story sounds similar to mine -- car full of memories. In my case it was mostly my dogs. My dogs of 10 years or so who had always ridden in my dog hair filled V6 Mustang both died one after another a year before I started this build. I needed a new car but when I'd get into my car and I'd see the dog stuff lying around and the dog hair on the interior, I just couldn't bring myself to do it. My wife and I are big dog people, we do rescue and everything and we don't have kids so our dogs are like our kids. When I finished the build, went through paint and then went to get a detail, I told them, "leave the dog hair." Today a picture of my 2 dogs sits on the dash. I feel it is their car as much as it is mine

I have been going back and forth on whether to swap my 2016 V6. I decided to go full street track car (and later on track only Time Trials car), and she will keep the 3.7L...but instead of the paddle shifter 6r80, I will swap in a sequential. Now I need to buy a house and pull money out of it to afford this... @honeybadger for the encouragement to do this once house key is in hand.

 

[BackInBlack]

I have been going back and forth on whether to swap my 2016 V6. I decided to go full street track car (and later on track only Time Trials car), and she will keep the 3.7L...but instead of the paddle shifter 6r80, I will swap in a sequential. Now I need to buy a house and pull money out of it to afford this... @honeybadger for the encouragement to do this once house key is in hand.

Cyclone is a great engine and I really loved my V6. I ran it until it had about 170k miles on it and figured I wanted to swap before the engine blew so I could sell it to someone. The swap is easy as far as swaps go. I guess the main issue is making sure you get good parts. If you want to gamble and try to save money like I did (in the end I did still save a little money, but I got a really great deal) I bought my car as a wreck from a salvage auction. I'd recommend IAA over Copart b/c IAA's sellers are insurance companies and the wrecks are untouched. Copart cars come from everywhere. Good luck!

 

[CobaltFilly]

Cyclone is a great engine and I really loved my V6. I ran it until it had about 170k miles on it and figured I wanted to swap before the engine blew so I could sell it to someone. The swap is easy as far as swaps go. I guess the main issue is making sure you get good parts. If you want to gamble and try to save money like I did (in the end I did still save a little money, but I got a really great deal) I bought my car as a wreck from a salvage auction. I'd recommend IAA over Copart b/c IAA's sellers are insurance companies and the wrecks are untouched. Copart cars come from everywhere. Good luck!

Going the full N/A 3.7 paired with a good transmission route.

I have never heard of this BG Dynamic clean you are speaking of...sounds like some interesting yet risky business.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

I know a few guys that started with BG clear back in the 80s and though like JDee I am not a fan of many of the so called miracle cures I am aware of many Dealerships that use BG products to clean engine deposits and more. In my estimation I would consider trying it, as it is a well respected product line with various automotive performance circles.

 

[BackInBlack]

I know a few guys that started with BG clear back in the 80s and though like JDee I am not a fan of many of the so called miracle cures I am aware of many Dealerships that use BG products to clean engine deposits and more. In my estimation I would consider trying it, as it is a well respected product line with various automotive performance circles.

I think I'm gonna try it. So far, nobody has serious objections to it. I did run it by Shaun so we'll see if he has an opinion on it. This will probably be my last ditch effort. If it doesn't work then I'll have to do HDPE when I get a better motor one day when this one goes. It's still a fun daily.

Really appreciate all you guys's help throughout the build. TMO has been a cornerstone of my process.

 

[BackInBlack]

Shaun didn't comment on the BG treatment. He just said that false knock is also a possibility and that I should look for sources of that as well. I'm gonna guess that it's real knock though. I don't have any rattling aside from my Centerforce clutch chatter at idle, and while I generally don't have knock on the street, mode 6 data from my ECU does show very rare misfires (very low, almost non-existent)... Will let ya'll know how this treatment goes. Doing it next week.

 

[BackInBlack]

Engine flush complete. Was pretty scared about this process but it seems to have gone down without issue. First impression/data log shows no change in fuel trims. +10% at idle and +4% on the highway. The engine does run noticeably smoother though, and seems a hair quieter. I did notice that there was a lot of oil in the oil catch can after the treatment, but that isn't super surprising as the fluid is thinner than 5W-50.

Noticed something new on startup the morning after the flush. Gasoline smell coming from under the car. It dissipated quickly and went away. I thought this might be a clue so I started searching for, "gasoline smell at first startup after oil change", and the information I found pointed to valve stem seals. My mechanic was thinking that the problem could be piston rings, but I don't have a bunch of smoke driving around so valve stem seals seems to make more sense. I'm going to try to get a video of the exhaust at cold start. I'm definitely willing to get the valve stem seals replaced along with all the while you're in there's, but if I go any deeper into this I wanna make sure it's nothing in engine first...

Will update with oil consumption results later. If the problem is valve stem seals, I'd imagine a flush could make that worse, and so I might see higher oil consumption. If it's piston rings, I might see lower oil consumption...

 

[BackInBlack]

Slight puff on cold start...

I'm not ready to give up yet. I think I'll try the speed shop...

 

[BackInBlack]

Engine seems smoother but my fuel trims went back up to 15%. Gonna try some seal conditioner (at205) in case it's the valve seals. Gonna talk to speed shop Saturday. No noticeable oil consumption yet.

 

[BackInBlack]

Engine issues fixed with snake oil? E85 tune ahoy?

Earlier this week, I dumped my Motorcraft 5W-50 that had BG MOA in it from the engine flush, and I went and bought some quick Mobil 1 5W-50 from NAPA. I put that in there along with the AT-205 seal conditioner. I hear that this AT-205 stuff thins the oil, and I'm babying it while I drive with this crap in there. My mechanic gave me an extra can of BG MOA so I put that in there too to be safe. Seems like it's a moly additive.

Today, I went to my local tuner, who just like AED has so far refused to work on my car. I got in my car, hooked up my SCT tuner and began to log to see if there was any improvement. The tuner is a little far away, so I figured it'd be a good time to log. At first startup and until everything warmed up, for the first time ever, I saw flat 1.00 long term fuel trims at idle (both banks). Feeling cautiously hopeful, I drove to the tuner. When I got there, he looked my car over and was impressed. He said, "Wow, you really swapped everything, huh?" I think he probably thought it was a shitty salvage build that was in terrible shape. After looking over the car, he said he'd tune it and he recommended that I go E85. He says it just runs better for everything and that it'd also help to clean out the engine. Sounds reasonable to me. In fact, I was thinking of doing that as a next step anyway. What do you guys think? I'd just do tried and true FRPP 47lb. injectors...

Anyway, I drive the car home, fuel trims are low on the highway as usual. It seems I averaged about +2%. Then I got home and let it idle again. +6% both banks. GOOD ENOUGH! I think MAYBE I did it. It seems that this engine maybe had dried out valve seals from sitting in the salvage yard for 2 years...

For now, I'll run this crap in my engine for another week and watch the logs. If these numbers hold or improve, then I'm FINALLY f***ing DONE! Then I can finally move on to some COOL stuff.

Had another stroke of luck happen to me just as I was leaving the shop. Will tell you guys about it later! WHAT A GREAT f***ing DAY! Hope you guys have a good weekend

 

[BackInBlack]

Been about a week and I haven't seen the +0% trims again. I'm tending to focus on the trims b/c they're the symptom that I have that's the easiest to track. 2nd log after oil change, I had 6% trims again, 3rd log I had 7%, 4th log I had 10%... I noticed a slight fuel smell on my dipstick as well. Could be the additive, but if I don't get the lower fuel trims again, I wonder if my oil is being diluted by fuel from piston ring blowby. If I did, fuel in the oil and oil in the combustion chamber from piston ring blowby could explain all of my symptoms. If that's the case, since I've already done a flush, there's probably not much more I can do I guess. I could try a ring soak. Ya never know though, I might log better trims again. I'll continue to monitor.

The car doesn't run bad enough to necessitate a rebuild or a new motor. If this is my situation, maybe I can get by for a while using some sort of oil thickener. I'm scheduled for a dyno tune on Oct. 14th. I'll tell the tuner everything I know and see what he says.

Really looking forward to getting this chemical out of my engine but gonna keep going as long as I think there's a chance things might improve... Will probably do another oil change next weekend at the latest.

Anyone have any experience with RPG Engines? That's what my local tuner is recommending if I needed to replace the short block. I was thinking more along the lines of an Aluminator though. I've seen several people praise them on TMO and it seems like it'd be about the same price. A rebuild would certainly be possible but it doesn't seem worth it cost wise...

My salvage Boss may have been a lemon If the engine has issues, that means that the only stuff in the car that I haven't had to replace will have been the ECU, wiring harnesses and interior bits! Bleh.

 

[Dave_W]

You might want to research having a reputable shop "freshen" your engine instead of a full short block replacement. Probably considerably cheaper.