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S197 Badger - 2011 S197 Gen3 Swap Build Thread Profile - S197 Mustangs

Do you have a diagnostic tool that can monitor PID’s in the ECU? When mine wouldn’t start and there were not DTC’s that I thought would prevent the starting sequence it was the PID’s that gave me enough info to eventually fix it.
 
194
312
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
CA
Do you have a diagnostic tool that can monitor PID’s in the ECU? When mine wouldn’t start and there were not DTC’s that I thought would prevent the starting sequence it was the PID’s that gave me enough info to eventually fix it.

I am down to one code and this is a weird one. I got a couple more things I want to try but maybe someone has an idea what is going on here.

P124 - TPS problems:
IMG_6898.jpeg

Symptoms:
  • Getting the same result on two separate accelerator pedals I have here.
  • TPS channel is blank.
  • Pedal inputs get recognized and produce data.
  • Throttle body briefly moves and initiates when turning on power.
  • But pedal position has no effect on throttle body.
  • Starter still won’t engage. Might be unrelated though.
APP_E and APP_D changes based on pedal position. TP_R (Relative Throttle Position Displayed) is unaffected by it though.
Either the ECU refuses to use the data cause it considers in unsafe or it does it is not using it at all as of right now.
IMG_6904.jpeg
IMG_6903.jpeg

Other Possible factors:
  • Tune on the ECU is unknown
  • Engine was only used on the engine dyno. Maybe the pedals were never hooked up in the tune.
 
194
312
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
CA
If you run a wire from the start switch to the starter solenoid (where the orange wire from the control pack connects to), will it crank?
Last time I played with that was two weeks ago and I have to check what we did exactly. But we were able to make the starter motor engage when wired directly. The starter motor itself is confirmed to be functional and it seams to be an issue with the starter signal to the solenoid.
 
I am down to one code and this is a weird one. I got a couple more things I want to try but maybe someone has an idea what is going on here.

P124 - TPS problems:
View attachment 73203

Symptoms:
  • Getting the same result on two separate accelerator pedals I have here.
  • TPS channel is blank.
  • Pedal inputs get recognized and produce data.
  • Throttle body briefly moves and initiates when turning on power.
  • But pedal position has no effect on throttle body.
  • Starter still won’t engage. Might be unrelated though.
APP_E and APP_D changes based on pedal position. TP_R (Relative Throttle Position Displayed) is unaffected by it though.
Either the ECU refuses to use the data cause it considers in unsafe or it does it is not using it at all as of right now.
View attachment 73202
View attachment 73204

Other Possible factors:
  • Tune on the ECU is unknown
  • Engine was only used on the engine dyno. Maybe the pedals were never hooked up in the tune.
Is the throttle body compatible with the Gen3? The Gen3 uses a different signal than earlier gen's.
This is what Motortrend used on the cobra Jet manifold:
 
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Last time I played with that was two weeks ago and I have to check what we did exactly. But we were able to make the starter motor engage when wired directly. The starter motor itself is confirmed to be functional and it seams to be an issue with the starter signal to the solenoid.
Once you get the throttle body figured out, I would turn on the ignition and try starting with the starter directly wired. BTW, you can have the starter wired with both methods (direct and through computer).
 

captdistraction

GrumpyRacer
1,858
1,514
Phoenix, Az
you aren't using the original cluster (which has a can bridge built into it) are you? That can be part of the no-start condition issue.

What is your ignition setup like? Done with switches?

Finally, just one last note on the ATI - are you sure your hub is aluminum on that unit and not steel? I just ask since we have another TMO member likely looking at a crank replacement due to an ATI clearance issue. I dunno why it bothers me so, but just looking out for my fellow TMO'ers awesome and inspiring builds.

One other thing you can do is run the can sniffer script on the race capture - there's a couple CAN IDs and Mode 21H pids that are associated with enabling the starter output on these and I do remember that being one of a couple possible issues that come up with the control packs kits (the other was relay-related - and I'm reaching out to that gentleman who did a swap in a Ford GT clone and had a similar issue for his input on the solution)
 
194
312
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
CA
Is the throttle body compatible with the Gen3? The Gen3 uses a different signal than earlier gen's.
This is what Motortrend used on the cobra Jet manifold:
Awesome, you pin pointed the issue! I dropped in the old gen3 TB and it worked right away.

Their article says:
Ford Performance includes a harness with the Cobra Jet manifold (shown) but we opted for JMS Chip's ThrottleMax plug-and-play adaptor.

Makes it sound like the converter might be optional. Now I wonder if that is down to the tune or if I got to drop another $400 to get that TB going. Alternatively I could go for a bigger 2018+ TB, not sure if there are any gains in it though.

Starter is still not engaging and I will debug that one next.

@captdistraction The control back itself ignores the cluster. Do you remember any forum threads about that which I could crawl for info? Right now I can´t check with 100% certainty if the hub is aluminum or steel. But going by memory of its weight I would wager its steel.
 
Their article says:


Makes it sound like the converter might be optional. Now I wonder if that is down to the tune or if I got to drop another $400 to get that TB going. Alternatively I could go for a bigger 2018+ TB, not sure if there are any gains in it though.
The converter is mandatory on Gen3s with the Ford Cobra Jet TB. The cable Ford supplies is to adapt the TB plug to the engine harness plug; there is no conversion of the digital signal to analog with it. VMP makes a TB that is for Gen3s but that's another +$700.
 
194
312
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
CA
Managed to get the starter to crank over using my switch board. New VMP TB is inbound as well. Crossing my fingers to start the car later this week.
In the meantime I started cleaning up the rest of the car.

The trunk braces are in, trunk inside is cleaned and painted and trunk and wing are mounted again:
758C4D56-B986-4E95-A5F3-ECAA4AE0E101.jpeg
EC9C7660-BA82-4260-8533-67E00E8FAA96.jpeg
3B274356-AC60-4D87-B340-0EA873709F7B.jpeg


After almost starting a fire due to poor grounding I decided to get all the wiring out of "debug mode" and do some proper clean up. Battery box, new grounds an junction block are going in.
Also started to trim out all the wiring that I know I won`t need anymore. Mostly Audio, GPS, etc. in this case:
IMG_7062.jpeg
 
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194
312
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
CA
  • Looking for a good power distribution block and position to aid with the battery relocation. Any recommendations?
  • I got a high PSI sender that I won´t need for brake pressure anymore. Any ideas what else to do with it? I already got oil and fuel pressure.

VMP 69mm TB is in. Decided to go for a larger TB than spending half of it on just some retrofit wiring.
Looks great, plug&play and works like a charm so far. It appears to be utilizing the stock 2018 TB motor.

TB_02.gif
66780F30-A7A5-4254-8E1E-AA3F4CF0D767.jpeg
03482B97-C8FA-4A9C-9605-AD2D919D3BEC.jpeg
2FE879BE-368C-498F-8BCD-6A6F2860C167.jpeg

The porting came out nicely! Just got to fix up the attachment point and we are good to go.
IMG_7090.jpeg
 
5,495
6,445
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Pleasanton: 1/2 way between Sonoma and Laguna Seca
  • Looking for a good power distribution block and position to aid with the battery relocation. Any recommendations?
  • I got a high PSI sender that I won´t need for brake pressure anymore. Any ideas what else to do with it? I already got oil and fuel pressure.

VMP 69mm TB is in. Decided to go for a larger TB than spending half of it on just some retrofit wiring.
Looks great, plug&play and works like a charm so far. It appears to be utilizing the stock 2018 TB motor.

View attachment 73542
View attachment 73538
View attachment 73540
View attachment 73539

The porting came out nicely! Just got to fix up the attachment point and we are good to go.
View attachment 73543
Love the graphic!
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
8,626
2,555
Arizona, USA
Damn shame about the ear on that manifold. I have one in the garage with the opposite upper corner broken just like that :( Gonna be wall art soon, along with my serialized BOSS manifold.
 
  • Looking for a good power distribution block and position to aid with the battery relocation. Any recommendations?
  • I got a high PSI sender that I won´t need for brake pressure anymore. Any ideas what else to do with it? I already got oil and fuel pressure.

VMP 69mm TB is in. Decided to go for a larger TB than spending half of it on just some retrofit wiring.
Looks great, plug&play and works like a charm so far. It appears to be utilizing the stock 2018 TB motor.

View attachment 73542
View attachment 73538
View attachment 73540
View attachment 73539

The porting came out nicely! Just got to fix up the attachment point and we are good to go.
View attachment 73543

Looking for a traditional style pdm? Bussman makes some nice ones depending on how many circuits you need. They’re just blocks and you buy terminals and wire them up any way you want. Otherwise if you want to go solid state PDM ($$$$) I’d say AIM seems to have a compelling quality and feature to price ratio. This was the route I was gonna go if I couldn’t get my stock harness working. You get the PDM and dash for a relatively small premium to one of their dashes alone.

check out this eBay store for traditional pdm components or prewired units. Usually you can get components much cheaper from digikey and the like but so much stuff is out of stock these days this places bussman kit with terminals was the easy button for me recently.


 
194
312
Exp. Type
Time Attack
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
CA
Looking for a traditional style pdm? Bussman makes some nice ones depending on how many circuits you need. They’re just blocks and you buy terminals and wire them up any way you want. Otherwise if you want to go solid state PDM ($$$$) I’d say AIM seems to have a compelling quality and feature to price ratio. This was the route I was gonna go if I couldn’t get my stock harness working. You get the PDM and dash for a relatively small premium to one of their dashes alone.

check out this eBay store for traditional pdm components or prewired units. Usually you can get components much cheaper from digikey and the like but so much stuff is out of stock these days this places bussman kit with terminals was the easy button for me recently.



I am afraid you gave an absolute fantastic answer to the wrong question. It is way simpler, I just need one of these to distribute the power from the relocated battery to the other components in the engine bay.
1647532941333.png
 

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