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Brakes Revisited

Currently I am running the old style DBA 5000 rotors front and DBA4000 rear. The rears have been fine, but I have significant cracking after the first weekend with the DBA5000's in front. It was 90-100 degrees that weekend and I was running Hawk DTC70 pads with no brake ducting.

I ran another weekend that was much cooler and did not see any additional cracking but at this point I am going to replace the rotors before something bad happens. Searching through some older threads I saw discussions about running DBA vs stock blanks. The price difference is substantial and I can't afford to keep cracking rotors that are this expensive. What are peoples current thoughts on this? Run DBA, run stock or do something else? I am guessing that things will be better once I get the brake ducting installed but that should carry over for both types of rotors.

Also, I am currently running DTC70 front and DTC60 rear, as suggested to me when I first got the car. Are other people running this 'staggered' setup. I am not very happy with the braking, I feel the car gets a little overwhelmed and unsettled in heavy braking zones. Seems like it might be better to run the same pads all the way around? That has usually worked best for me on other track cars in the past.
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
Moderator
8,551
2,389
Arizona, USA
Blanks are the way to go for the non-racer track day enthusiast. Heavier, but more thermal mass--less cracking/last longer, plus a LOT cheaper.

Still split friction. If the car is getting unsettled (tail wagging) it's because you're transferring so much weight up front, might have to work on your braking technique to alleviate this--but if you're trying to go DEEP, you're just going to have to learn to deal with it (although there is something to be said for a slightly longer, lighter brake without overslowing the car)
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
I'm just going to guess that you are either a better or more aggressive driver than I am...but I think you should probably get the brake ducts on first and then decide what rotors work for you.

My GT with HT-10/HP+ seem to be holding up okay on the stock blanks. Temps are a lot more reasonable since I put the ducts on. I have a set of the 6x6 5000 fronts, but I've been hesitant to put them on yet and might run them when I find a rotor friendly pad.

What is your thermal paint on the rotors telling you? Are you reading rotor temps at the track?
 
ArizonaGT said:
Blanks are the way to go for the non-racer track day enthusiast. Heavier, but more thermal mass--less cracking/last longer, plus a LOT cheaper.

Still split friction. If the car is getting unsettled (tail wagging) it's because you're transferring so much weight up front, might have to work on your braking technique to alleviate this--but if you're trying to go DEEP, you're just going to have to learn to deal with it (although there is something to be said for a slightly longer, lighter brake without overslowing the car)

Ok I'll probably try the blanks then, at least for the next set.

If I make it out to Chuckwalla, I'll get some coaching and take a look at my braking. I'm definitely going in hard but I could probably stretch it out a little. That said i can learn to live with it.
 
Grant 302 said:
I'm just going to guess that you are either a better or more aggressive driver than I am...but I think you should probably get the brake ducts on first and then decide what rotors work for you.

My GT with HT-10/HP+ seem to be holding up okay on the stock blanks. Temps are a lot more reasonable since I put the ducts on. I have a set of the 6x6 5000 fronts, but I've been hesitant to put them on yet and might run them when I find a rotor friendly pad.

What is your thermal paint on the rotors telling you? Are you reading rotor temps at the track?

Yeah, I need to find the time and get the ducts in. I have not been taking temps, probably a good idea next time out...
 
As for the heat checking, that's normal regardless of the rotor especially with a very aggressive pad like the DTC70. As long as they are just small surface cracks that DO NOT extend all the way through to the edge of the rotor, you're fine. I typically heat check my rotors the first weekend but they will last 10-15 track days before cracking to the edges. Just make sure you eyeball them after each session when checking tire pressures. You should keep a spare ser of blanks with you just in case anyway at the track. I am going to give Pete's Pagid pads a shot this season to see if they help with rotor life.
 

Sesshomurai

Did you season the rotors and bed the pads on them. When i got my high end rotors it came with lengthy procedure to heat cycle them to avoid warping and cracking.
 

PeteInCT

#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
Moderator
2,848
14
Connecticut
1) Get the cooling ducts. They made almost a 100 degree difference in my test at NJMP last year.
2) Make sure you bed the pads in well.
3) The DTC-70 is a very aggressive pad (by HPDE standards) that runs hot. I know of no rotor that does very well with those pads. If you like the pads them then surely stick with them, but the rotor life more or less comes with the price of admission.
4) On using blanks vs. slotted, I am not entirely sure if the additional mass of an OEM rotor with its cooling vanes is more appropriate than a well designed slotted rotor with a better cooling vane structure. For sure, the cost of replacement is a lot less.

-Pete
 
cloud9 said:
As for the heat checking, that's normal regardless of the rotor especially with a very aggressive pad like the DTC70. As long as they are just small surface cracks that DO NOT extend all the way through to the edge of the rotor, you're fine.

I'll post pictures of the rotors when I get a chance and you can tell me what you think. The cracks are not to the edges yet but they do go about an 1/8" deep into the holes on the rotors which worries me. On my other track car I run HT-10's ( yes I know, they are ancient ) and a StopTech BBK. I get a ton of very small cracks all over those rotors but they are not nearly as deep as the ones on the Boss rotors, hence the concern.

cloud9 said:
I typically heat check my rotors the first weekend but they will last 10-15 track days before cracking to the edges. Just make sure you eyeball them after each session when checking tire pressures.

I have never had to check rotor temps in the past so this might be part of the problem. How do you recommend doing this? My other track car is in the Pacific Northwest where the temperatures are fairly mild most of the year, so heat has not been a problem. The Boss has only been driven in California at Big Willow with significantly higher ambient temperatures so that may be part of the problem.

cloud9 said:
You should keep a spare ser of blanks with you just in case anyway at the track. I am going to give Pete's Pagid pads a shot this season to see if they help with rotor life.

I've used Pagid yellows before on a Porsche Cayman and really liked them. I'm also trying some Performance Friction pads on my other track car this week to see how they perform.
 
PeteInCT said:
1) Get the cooling ducts. They made almost a 100 degree difference in my test at NJMP last year.
2) Make sure you bed the pads in well.
3) The DTC-70 is a very aggressive pad (by HPDE standards) that runs hot. I know of no rotor that does very well with those pads. If you like the pads them then surely stick with them, but the rotor life more or less comes with the price of admission.
4) On using blanks vs. slotted, I am not entirely sure if the additional mass of an OEM rotor with its cooling vanes is more appropriate than a well designed slotted rotor with a better cooling vane structure. For sure, the cost of replacement is a lot less.

-Pete

Yes, must...install...cooling...ducts :)

I think I will try a different pad the next time around. I haven't been that happy with these pads so I will probably go to either Pagid or PF next time around.

With respect to the rotors, I have always heard that the two piece 'foating' rotors and a better vane design was superior at managing heat vs the single piece OEM, regardless of mass. That is why I went with the DBA's first time around. However with the different in price, the two piece need to last 3 times longer to make it worth while. Still on the fence about this one....
 
PeteInCT said:
4) On using blanks vs. slotted, I am not entirely sure if the additional mass of an OEM rotor with its cooling vanes is more appropriate than a well designed slotted rotor with a better cooling vane structure. For sure, the cost of replacement is a lot less.

-Pete
I wonder if the cooling vanes make much of a difference. I suspect it's possible and is why I went with the DBA 4000 T3 rotors. Probably wasting my money compared to stock blanks but at least they cost less than two piece rotors.
 
Teamsketch said:
I'm also trying some Performance Friction pads on my other track car this week to see how they perform.

What combo you going to run. I have run the 01/97 and now the 08/97. There is not too much of a difference between them, the 01 is a tad more aggressive on initial bite but they are hard on rotors and don't last very long. I have not run the DTC 70 but hear the are hard on rotors, I assume the PFC01 is close to that. The 08 wear is pretty good and not hard on the rotors.

As far as rotors I have had good luck with the Powerslot Cyro Rotors 126.61089CSL CSR fronts/ 126.61087CSL CSR rears. Had a set of rears that lasted over over 15 days (lost count). Cracked a set of DBA 4000 rears (three cracks total) in 4 days, needless to say the Power slots are much cheaper. I have run the same Powerslot Cyro up front and they also lasted many days. I have also used the Brembo Slotted front rotors and were very happy with them, cost about 360 a pair, so given the price I would stay with the Powerslots when I can. I also used a set of DBA 5000 front rotors and after 4 days I am not sure if I will use them again, while not cracked to the edge I can see a spot that looks like it will happen soon.

If I were worried about tenths of a second out there I would pay two three times more for the DBA two piece rotor and replace them after a few hours but since I am lucky to get within two seconds lap difference I stick with the heavy rotors.
 
ArizonaGT said:
The 01 is way easier on rotors than the DTC70s and in my experience the pad life is almost 2x DTC70s--I will not run Hawk pads again.

Good to know, I never ran the DTC 70's just guessing there. The 01 is harder on the rotors then the new 08, so that is saying a lot. Are you still running the PFC 01 up front?
 
2012YellowBoss said:
What combo you going to run. I have run the 01/97 and now the 08/97. There is not too much of a difference between them, the 01 is a tad more aggressive on initial bite but they are hard on rotors and don't last very long. I have not run the DTC 70 but hear the are hard on rotors, I assume the PFC01 is close to that. The 08 wear is pretty good and not hard on the rotors.

As far as rotors I have had good luck with the Powerslot Cyro Rotors 126.61089CSL CSR fronts/ 126.61087CSL CSR rears. Had a set of rears that lasted over over 15 days (lost count). Cracked a set of DBA 4000 rears (three cracks total) in 4 days, needless to say the Power slots are much cheaper. I have run the same Powerslot Cyro up front and they also lasted many days. I have also used the Brembo Slotted front rotors and were very happy with them, cost about 360 a pair, so given the price I would stay with the Powerslots when I can. I also used a set of DBA 5000 front rotors and after 4 days I am not sure if I will use them again, while not cracked to the edge I can see a spot that looks like it will happen soon.

If I were worried about tenths of a second out there I would pay two three times more for the DBA two piece rotor and replace them after a few hours but since I am lucky to get within two seconds lap difference I stick with the heavy rotors.

I was going to run PF01 but am actually going with PC06 because I couldn't get the 01 in time for the next event. The PF06 is more of an endurance pad with a little less initial bite so should be interesting. This is on an E36 M3 so we run the same pads front and rear.

I realize this is HPDE so I'm not counting tenths, just trying to find something that will work consistently for a few weekends without cracking the first hot day or the first weekend. Those Powerslots look interesting I will definitely check them out.
 
Teamsketch said:
I was going to run PF01 but am actually going with PC06 because I couldn't get the 01 in time for the next event. The PF06 is more of an endurance pad with a little less initial bite so should be interesting. This is on an E36 M3 so we run the same pads front and rear.

I am interested to hear your review of the 06 and the wear compared to what you were running. If you had run the 01's it would be a better review for me but still like to hear how they compare to the Hawk's. I have not talked with anyone that has run them.

Give the Powerslots a try, I may experiment with other front rotors over time but unless someone else can show me rears rotors that work better and last longer for the money then the Powerslots, they will be the only rear rotors I will buy for the Boss.
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
Teamsketch said:
I have never had to check rotor temps in the past so this might be part of the problem. How do you recommend doing this? My other track car is in the Pacific Northwest where the temperatures are fairly mild most of the year, so heat has not been a problem. The Boss has only been driven in California at Big Willow with significantly higher ambient temperatures so that may be part of the problem.

Use a temp gun with a laser pointer.

Humid and 72 degrees is very different from arid and 92 degrees, with regard to cooling.
 
Teamsketch said:
I was going to run PF01 but am actually going with PC06 because I couldn't get the 01 in time for the next event. The PF06 is more of an endurance pad with a little less initial bite so should be interesting. This is on an E36 M3 so we run the same pads front and rear.

I realize this is HPDE so I'm not counting tenths, just trying to find something that will work consistently for a few weekends without cracking the first hot day or the first weekend. Those Powerslots look interesting I will definitely check them out.
PF01's are very good on initial bite, and last a long time. Downside is that they eat rotors. I was going through a set of rotors before the pads were done. Cobalt XR1's/XR3's are a great track day pad. Easy on the rotors and can take lots of heating. I was going through 4 sets of Cobalts for every set of rotors. Biggest cause of cracking rotors is not heating up the rotors properly before laying into them. I am going to keep very detailed records this year on brakes. I have some new Pagids and Raybestos pads to test to add to my other brands I have been using. Can't wait for the weather to clear!!
 
jdasch1 said:
PF01's are very good on initial bite, and last a long time. Downside is that they eat rotors. I was going through a set of rotors before the pads were done. Cobalt XR1's/XR3's are a great track day pad. Easy on the rotors and can take lots of heating. I was going through 4 sets of Cobalts for every set of rotors. Biggest cause of cracking rotors is not heating up the rotors properly before laying into them. I am going to keep very detailed records this year on brakes. I have some new Pagids and Raybestos pads to test to add to my other brands I have been using. Can't wait for the weather to clear!!
Thanks for the info on the PF01s as I considered those too. I am tired of blowing through rotors too and am going to try something different this year. I am starting with the Pagids probably RS14/RS56.
 
To the extent this is helpful, I run Performance Friction 01's up front and 06's out back on my 2011 GT. The rears obviously last for a long while whereas the fronts last me (I wish I took better notes) around 5 track weekends. This is on stock rotors. Rotor wear is not bad for me, either, and I'm running a set of Brembo's that come on the car (on my second set of those rotors).

I haven't tried the other brands out there yet, but I can say I'm decently pleased with these pads. I do get a considerable amount of "shimmying" in the wheel under heavy braking some times, but I pretty much just forget about that usually. I run stainless steel lines and brake ducts and the brakes feel solid pretty much all the time (however I do need to investigate something - sometimes I park the car after a session with an ever so slightly spongy pedal despite fresh Motul RBF600 - this may be normal?).

And keep in mind this pad usage is on a car that's stopping from high speeds (Whipple'd).
 

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