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Minimal suspension upgrades

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DEye

You can't get there from here...
So, the mod bug has bitten,

I track the car 2, 3 times a year + local autocross club events,
I'm lookin at these type of parts:
Rear LCA relocation brkts: M-5650-A
Rear Lower Control Arms: M-5649-R1
Maybe the steada parts rather than FR.

It there going to be an appreciable, noticeable change from stock ?
Same goes for the watts link...

Thanks for the input,
Don
 

Senderofan

Having more fun than should be allowed..in my Boss
Don:

A hearty "Welcome to the Club!" is in order. We are blessed with several folks here that are extremely well versed in all forms of racing....which also includes the art of setting up suspensions. Having said that...perhaps you could provide a little more info. You mention LCA relo. brackets....are you planning to lower the vehicle? If not...perhaps just try new LCA's with stiffer bushings? I think you might have issues if the rear of the LCA is too low.

My under educated and humble opinion is that changes / upgrades to our suspensions can make noticeable improvements. I feel I've been able to significantly reduce nose dive while braking as well as roll in the corners. I think as long as you try to run with a consistent line of parts....a fine example is FRRP....you should have positive results. I think if you mix and match too much between different brands....it might not work as well. Many guys here have had very positive experiences with FRPP. I went with Hotchkis and have not regretted it. I've completely re-done my suspension. But I stress...take my opinions with a grain of salt...I'm trying my best to learn the road course specialty. If you think you might get a lot more serious about your racing...perhaps you might consider contacting Cortex or Vorshlag for advice.

Good Luck...and again...Welcome :)

Wayne

P.S.

I've really enjoyed having more adjustability of my new suspension. In terms of having Caster / Camber plates, adjustable sways, adjustable pan hard rod and more precise adjustability of the Koni dampers. I've adjusted my suspension to where I feel most comfortable.
 

Senderofan

Having more fun than should be allowed..in my Boss
I should also mention that the Ford engineers did a fine job balancing NVH with performance. But you'd be very surprised at how soft and compliant the bushings are on the LCA's but even more so the UCA. Guess it depends on what changes you want to make in how the car handles....and how far you want to go with changes components.

Hopefully our experts will chime in....but I'm in favor of suspension upgrades. The only down side is increased NVH and you won't stop smiling.

Wayne
 
Welcome to the forum, Don. Spend some time searching in the sticky suspension threads, especially the FRPP thread. Lots of vendor-agnostic, conceptual info about minimal upgrades. I'm still running stock, so I will let others chime-in here, but my first impression of your list is that it isn't the "Stage 1 suspension" I would (and have) made. Assuming a dual-purpose vehicle (street/track) my list would look like this:

$ - Springs + optional adjustable PHB

$$ - add Camber plates

$$$ - add Adjustable swaybars

$$$$ - add Shocks/struts

I would do all of those things first and then see what problems remain that can be solved with the LCA and relo brackets. The Watts link is a whole 'nutha mutha and does not qualify as a "minimal upgrade." My list should make sense, but if you need me to qualify anything, I will be happy to explain myself.
 
Jimmy Pribble said:
Welcome to the forum, Don. Spend some time searching in the sticky suspension threads, especially the FRPP thread. Lots of vendor-agnostic, conceptual info about minimal upgrades. I'm still running stock, so I will let others chime-in here, but my first impression of your list is that it isn't the "Stage 1 suspension" I would (and have) made. Assuming a dual-purpose vehicle (street/track) my list would look like this:

$ - Springs + optional adjustable PHB

Right on the button for both x-cross and track. The week point in this car is the front roll center springs and camber plates at the same time, Then the balance. You will love the difference in the feel of the car. Best

$$ - add Camber plates

$$$ - add Adjustable swaybars

$$$$ - add Shocks/struts

I would do all of those things first and then see what problems remain that can be solved with the LCA and relo brackets. The Watts link is a whole 'nutha mutha and does not qualify as a "minimal upgrade." My list should make sense, but if you need me to qualify anything, I will be happy to explain myself.
 
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1
When going down the modification path, you want to prioritize what you want to address.

ie) What handling traits do you want to change, or perhaps what behaviors in specific phases of cornering would you like changed for your local circuits etc?

Once those types of things are figured out, you will then have a clearer idea of what to modify. Throwing a bunch of great parts at a car will not necessarily make it better. Sometimes, dissimilar tuning principles from various manufacturer can muck up the balance the car had when stock to begin with. Not to mention, setup has just as much to do with the big picture as the actual parts themselves.

FWIW.
 
I look at my suspension upgrades as a minimum starting point and my goal was to reduce body roll and brake dive on track. Keep in mind that I track my car 6-8 times a year and am running the stock tire stagger. Here's what I did and what that improved on the car and in order of what I'd do.

1. Lowering springs. I have the FR P springs and this definitely reduced body roll and brake dive. A bit firmer on the street but honestly this is the ride I expected from the factory.
2. You really need to do install relocation brackets and adjustable panhard bar when you lower your car to recenter the axle and keep the LCA geometry correct.
3. Stiffer LCA's. I have the FR poly bushing units. What these did was take some of the movement out of the rear when rotating the car at corner turn in. It makes your steering feel more precise which increases your confidence cornering the car.

I think the above three points, four items, are a must for a starting point.

4. Camber plates. These increase precision steering the car and help with tire wear on track.
5. Upgrade dampers and I have FR 18000-C dampers. The Koni Yellows would be an excellent choice. I think the LS dampers are probably fine with lower and firmer springs but question how much control you get with the stock Boss 302 dampers. Certainly not necessary but I sold my stock units for close to what these cost so the additional cost was negligible. There's a solid market for the stock Boss units with the GT 5.0 owners. Since you're already going to have your car apart I highly recommend doing this.

https://trackmustangsonline.com/index.php?topic=2041.0
 
boro92 said:
When going down the modification path, you want to prioritize what you want to address.

ie) What handling traits do you want to change, or perhaps what behaviors in specific phases of cornering would you like changed for your local circuits etc?

Once those types of things are figured out, you will then have a clearer idea of what to modify. Throwing a bunch of great parts at a car will not necessarily make it better. Sometimes, dissimilar tuning principles from various manufacturer can muck up the balance the car had when stock to begin with. Not to mention, setup has just as much to do with the big picture as the actual parts themselves.

FWIW.

That is good advice and a good mod strategy, but for a "minimal" upgrade, we can confidently address the most fundamental problem that the Boss has:

horse.jpg


It is imperative to get control over the excessive body movement when driving hard. I think that springs should be the first things for anyone who wants to modify their Boss suspension. Again, this is a "minimal" suspension thread. I think that once the springs have been upgraded, then the OP (or whomever), should apply the strategy outlined above.
 
I always see springs as the first recommended mod, and understandably so. But I don't think I've seen anyone discuss whether any particular spring (aftermarket or FRPP) is matched to the stock dampers. That may not be important if you are just looking to lower the car, but if we are talking about a track car, consideration has to be given to the springs/shocks as a combo. Dampers have a sweet spot spring rate range for optimal performance. That should be considered in the discussion.
 
cosm3os said:
I always see springs as the first recommended mod, and understandably so. But I don't think I've seen anyone discuss whether any particular spring (aftermarket or FRPP) is matched to the stock dampers. That may not be important if you are just looking to lower the car, but if we are talking about a track car, consideration has to be given to the springs/shocks as a combo. Dampers have a sweet spot spring rate range for optimal performance. That should be considered in the discussion.

This is a good thought and I agree that everything should be considered, but I don't think these parts are often "matched" in any kind of useful way. They aren't Garanimals. For example, let's take the widely admired Koni Yellow damper. With what springs did they tune that damper? Who knows. But everyone seems to love them, no matter what springs they are using. I think in a lot of cases, the best we can hope for is to find someone who runs the configuration we want and ask for feedback, or test the combination ourselves.

Also, the damper issue can be so complicated and expensive, that I don't know that it belongs in the "minimal" upgrade thread. In fact, I think dampers might be the delineation between minimal and advanced upgrades. [shrugs]

Anyway, here is some useful data - I have the 161-M-18000-A - Ford Racing Mustang Shocks & Struts (these are non-adjustable versions of the dampers many people on this forum use) in a box. In a rare case of matching, these dampers were designed specifically for the "P" FRPP springs that I also have in a box. When I asked a Ford Racing suspension engineer if I should change-out the Boss dampers for these, he said no. So, the dampers not designed for P springs are better than the dampers designed and matched to P springs. See? It's complicated.

I still think there should be a suspension configuration sticky where we outline the suspension configurations of our individual cars, so folks can find one similar to what they are considering and ask the owner for feedback.
 
Jimmy Pribble said:
For example, let's take the widely admired Koni Yellow damper. With what springs did they tune that damper? Who knows.

I assure you its knowable, and known. That's what shock dynos are for. Now, Koni isn't telling anyone what they are valved at, but you better bet that a quality tuner like Strano has sent a set to a dyno (with or without Koni's permission), and knows the range and recommends the springs they recommend in their packages based on that information.
 
matching the components to one another is very important.
I'd dissect 'minimal' into two categories:
1. cost of components + cost of install - value of take-offs
2. time, energy, etc associated with tinkering by doing the mods piece by piece

I believe that there's a lot of science that goes into developing suspensions...most of which I don't understand. So I tend to look to people who, likely, know all about it and have access to real-world testing and data.

So, for me, I like the idea of a 'kit' where the parts are matched together and backed by a substantial company.

I did what Rick did...FRPP springs / dampers / relo brackets / LCA's / panhard....and added CC plates from MM. One-time install...and sold my stock suspension as a kit for surprisingly close to what I paid for the newer suspension. My car hasn't been on track, but it's proven to be a very capable street suspension with ride and performance characteristics that far exceed the stock suspension (for my taste).
 
fuhrius said:
matching the components to one another is very important.
I'd dissect 'minimal' into two categories:
1. cost of components + cost of install - value of take-offs
2. time, energy, etc associated with tinkering by doing the mods piece by piece

I believe that there's a lot of science that goes into developing suspensions...most of which I don't understand. So I tend to look to people who, likely, know all about it and have access to real-world testing and data.

So, for me, I like the idea of a 'kit' where the parts are matched together and backed by a substantial company.

I did what Rick did...FRPP springs / dampers / relo brackets / LCA's / panhard....and added CC plates from MM. One-time install...and sold my stock suspension as a kit for surprisingly close to what I paid for the newer suspension. My car hasn't been on track, but it's proven to be a very capable street suspension with ride and performance characteristics that far exceed the stock suspension (for my taste).
Thats good new on the sale of your suspension. maybe one of you guys would like the suspension of my LS with about 550 miles on it. Front shocks and springs assembled with vorslage camber plates. Rear shocks and springs and both front and rear sway bar. E-mail off line. Jim
 
367
1
Just some food for thought...

I did write a blurb which is very much related to this topic on my blog.
Once you figure out what you're looking for from the car, you want to be considerate of various aspects of suspension tuning (it sort of opens up a world of options to you, and you can make an intelligent decision):

Step 1 - http://dreamingin302ci.blogspot.ca/2013/11/suspension-tuning-primer-1-figure-out.html
Step 2 - http://dreamingin302ci.blogspot.ca/2013/11/suspension-tuning-primer-2-look-at-big.html
 
So bottom line, with primarily performance in mind, what springs do you think will be a good performance match with Koni sports?
I drive to and from the track only with rare occasions on the weekends.
 

Senderofan

Having more fun than should be allowed..in my Boss
13Boss#3328 said:
So bottom line, with primarily performance in mind, what springs do you think will be a good performance match with Koni sports?
I drive to and from the track only with rare occasions on the weekends.

If you are mainly track oriented with your car.....guess I'd recommend going with a high quality coilover set up....such as AST. I'd strongly recommend contacting one of the companies that race Mustangs and have them recommend a set up...such as Vorshlag, Cortex etc.

Wayne
 

Senderofan

Having more fun than should be allowed..in my Boss
The reason I mention the coil overs.....if you are nearly a track only car...you are looking to maximize handling. The coil over dampers and springs can be customized according to your specs and what you want out of the car. With OEM style springs and Yellows...we are looking for a balance between increased handling and on road behavior. I think coil overs get you closer to a true race car in terms of suspension characteristics.

Wayne
 
DEye... It sounds like you're only going to be tracking your car a few times per year, and maybe do a few auto-x's here and there.

Honestly, my advice would be to spend time (and money) on the single biggest variable and weakest link, the driver mod. Unless you're already pretty experienced, your Boss's limits, stock, are way higher than you'll be capable of exploiting. Get as much track time as you can and gain confidence with the car in its stock configuration. This will help you establish a baseline of how the car feels and handles on the track unmodified, without which you'll not have much of an idea why you're making a mod in the first place, or how what you're doing may affect the car's overall handling balance and dynamics under different track conditions.

If you absolutely can't resist and have to spend some money on "minimum" mods initially, limit them to 1) a set of track wheels and tires; 2) brake upgrades: track brake pads and fluid, front brake cooling kit; and maybe 3) some camber plates (to maximize front tire grip and minimize front tire wear). Otherwise forgo any suspension mods initially. Don't worry about LCAs, UCAs, springs, struts, coil overs, watts links, etc... all that stuff is well and good, but won't really make you any faster until you've got enough seat time to know precisely what your car needs or does't need, based on your driving style.

Save your money for now and get good at driving your Boss. Then you'll be much smarter and more deliberate about what mods to make. Of course, this is JMO, your milage may vary...
 
dabossinne said:
...If you absolutely can't resist and have to spend some money on mods initially, limit it to 1) a set of track wheels and tires; 2) brake upgrades: track brake pads and fluid, front brake cooling kit; and maybe 3) some camber plates (to maximize front tire grip and minimize front tire wear). Otherwise forgo any suspension mods initially. Don't worry about LCAs, UCAs, springs, struts, coil overs, watts links, etc... all that stuff is well and good, but won't really make you any faster of a driver until you've got enough seat time to know what your car needs or does't need, based on your driving style....

This is exactly how I progressed with the mustang. I'm currently on step 3 just to increase my tires life, then brake ducts to increase brake life and reliability.

of course, this approach is assuming you're somewhat new at tracking the mustang, like myself.
 
dabossinne said:
DEye... It sounds like you're only going to be tracking your car a few times per year, and maybe do a few auto-x's here and there.

Honestly, my advice would be to spend time (and money) on the single biggest variable and weakest link, the driver mod. Unless you're already pretty experienced, your Boss's limits, stock, are way higher than you'll be capable of exploiting. Get as much track time as you can and gain confidence with the car in its stock configuration. This will help you establish a baseline of how the car feels and handles on the track unmodified, without which you'll not have much of an idea why you're making a mod in the first place, or how what you're doing may affect the car's overall handling balance and dynamics under different track conditions.

If you absolutely can't resist and have to spend some money on "minimum" mods initially, limit them to 1) a set of track wheels and tires; 2) brake upgrades: track brake pads and fluid, front brake cooling kit; and maybe 3) some camber plates (to maximize front tire grip and minimize front tire wear). Otherwise forgo any suspension mods initially. Don't worry about LCAs, UCAs, springs, struts, coil overs, watts links, etc... all that stuff is well and good, but won't really make you any faster until you've got enough seat time to know precisely what your car needs or does't need, based on your driving style.

Save your money for now and get good at driving your Boss. Then you'll be much smarter and more deliberate about what mods to make. Of course, this is JMO, your milage may vary...

Agree completely. There are guys running a stock springs/shocks burning it up on the track, and are still faster than many with susp mods. The car rolls, yes, but that's ok. Brake mods come first, although you could argue CC plates are necessary to save those front tires. You need to figure out what works best for your tires, as this is key. You also need to be familiar with changing pads/rotors and flushing brake fluid. This saves costs and may be necessary at the track if your fluid boils, a pad wears out or a rotor cracks. The brakes are quite a sizeable bite to swallow, including the know how.

That being said, with a stiffer suspension, the car feels so much better, and is more enjoyable to drive. I'm just not really sure how much lap time improvement I'm getting, compared with a tire upgrade.

The picture in my sig shows my setup with CC plates, brake upgrades, slicks, and stock shocks/springs. I have since upgraded to a simple shock/spring setup. I was told that the Boss shocks are decent for the stock springs, but will wear out rapidly on lowering springs, even the "T" springs which are relatively soft.

Also, it may be worthwhile to do CC plates during the susp upgrade, as some vendors may even assemble the front unit entirely, obviating the need for spring compressors.

Im so happy to hear that there will be one more Boss out there on the track. My last event was with the BMW club and I was getting more attention than the R8. My next event will be with Chin at VIR and it looks like there will be about 5 boss' including an S. Keep em coming.
 

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