My S197 Got crushed by a trio of M3's on trackday at Waterford Hills MI

[twistedneck]

Talk about getting humbled, i was ready to go toe to toe in H3 class against these clowns and their German cars!.. guess what i got passed, destroyed, spit out.. I tried to hold their bumpers and i could NOT get the type of grip they got, not close and braking was possible but it seemed bad.

when i braked to stop on ABS my pads and rotors started making some nasty noises, no boiling fluid or deg but it sounded LOUD and was vibrating my steering wheel. after that i threw in the towel and let them start in front of me. The silver one promptly spun out and off the track! They all had sticky 275 or 285 18 inch 200 treadwear rubber. i was running my 5yrs old Pilot super sports 275 18's. i have an old set of Girodisc rotors and HP+ pads and the rotor lip is getting bad and i've had 14 different types of compounds on them so thats probably the issue. when super hot i got that same vibration noise around corners without braking!! i think the lip is hitting the caliper.

Oh and i tripped the noise police so i have to put my cats back on... its an E85 gen 1 coyote S197.

Advice appreciated!

Jeff Check

 

[PatientZero]

Move up to big boy tires on a 11" wheel. 295, 305, or 315 depending what brand/compound you pick.

The noise sounds like a combination of the ABS pump cycling(working) and maybe warped rotors or rotors with old brake deposits on them.

 

[67GTA]

What are the tire restrictions for that class? 305 or 315 width of any the fast 200tw would likely turn the tables.

 

[blacksheep-1]

The simple solution is this, the Boss 302 was designed to take on the M3, and it did.. very well. So at this point, the Boss platform would be my basic platform. to copy.
The PWC cars had the Ford "blue" bar up front and an 18mm bar in the rear. The springs were about (it's been awhile) something like 350 rear, maybe 600 front ... maybe as I recall, but not sure. They were on high zoot Penske coil overs. So, unless you are rich, you might run the JRI things, or.. you could just buy the Ford Performance pack kit that gives you all the bars and springs, this is basically the kit the SCCA requires in their classes. So the Gt500 brakes are pretty much the go to and are readily available, Hawk pads, I'll try to get thecompound, I may have some lying around still. At least, minimum 3 degrees of camber and all the caster you can get.
So with all that either copied or purchased you will need tires, not sure what your rules require, but the Hoosier A7 in at least 295 on a 10 inch wheel would be the go to for that. Keep the hot pressures under 35psi.

 

[twistedneck]

Move up to big boy tires on a 11" wheel. 295, 305, or 315 depending what brand/compound you pick.

The noise sounds like a combination of the ABS pump cycling(working) and maybe warped rotors or rotors with old brake deposits on them.

The fastest mustang there was configured a lot like mine but he had 315/30/18's all the way around on apex 11" wheels. it was ugly as sin but for a track rat car who cares.. Vorshlag guys said just gonig to a 200 threadware type rubber (Hankook RS4 for example) adds a ton of traction so maybe that will be enough but i'm stuck with 10" wide wheels for now. Oh the pump, it was pretty quiet i know me some ABS pump noise. It was clearly something dragging on the caliper and those are so close to the lip of that old rotor and to the center hub of the rotor.. it had to be that. sounded similar to hard braking w/o the abs part.

 

[twistedneck]

What are the tire restrictions for that class? 305 or 315 width of any the fast 200tw would likely turn the tables.

Open track day so no real 'racing' and the classes are just based on your times and how many times you have been there. I will do that fun class based stuff next year.

 

[twistedneck]

The simple solution is this, the Boss 302 was designed to take on the M3, and it did.. very well. So at this point, the Boss platform would be my basic platform. to copy.
The PWC cars had the Ford "blue" bar up front and an 18mm bar in the rear. The springs were about (it's been awhile) something like 350 rear, maybe 600 front ... maybe a sI recall, but not sure. They were on high zoot Penske coil overs. So, unless you are rich, you might run the JRY things, or.. you could just buyt the Ford PErformance pack kit that gives you all the bars and springs, this is basically the kit the SCCA requires in their classes. So the Gt500 brakes are pretty much the go to and are readily available, Hawk pads, I'll try to get thecompound, I may have some lying around still. At least, minimum 3 degrees of camber and all the caster you can get.
So with all that either copied or purchased you will need tires, not sure what your rules require, but the Hoosier A7 in at least 295 on a 10 inch wheel would be the go to for that. Keep the hot pressures under 35psi.

Very interesting indeed.. i designed those stabars with Ford engineers and bushings for the S197 (and s550 s650 etc) so i have acess to all the different front and bar sizes and I'm running the boss front bar but with the 18mm rear bar. with coilovers the rear gets a lot stiffer and the std. 25 and 26mm (LS) bars for rear make it way to over steery.. but i run softy 350 front 150 rear and i beleive you 600 front spring rate is real.. i need to do the rear too so maybe cortex 500 front 300 rear needs to go back on. i can't see how to get more camber i am stuck at 2 degrees.. Those tires sound tasty!! thanks for the excellent info.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Very interesting indeed.. i designed those stabars with Ford engineers and bushings for the S197 (and s550 s650 etc) so i have acess to all the different front and bar sizes and I'm running the boss front bar but with the 18mm rear bar. with coilovers the rear gets a lot stiffer and the std. 25 and 26mm (LS) bars for rear make it way to over steery.. but i run softy 350 front 150 rear and i beleive you 600 front spring rate is real.. i need to do the rear too so maybe cortex 500 front 300 rear needs to go back on. i can't see how to get more camber i am stuck at 2 degrees.. Those tires sound tasty!! thanks for the excellent info.

You are going to have to cut the shock towers, I have the jig if you want to borrow it. It is detailed in project superbeater, which you might read through when you get a moment.
I have seen S197s with 315s and they look pretty funky. These cars love soft springs and wimpy rear bars

 

[Boss4Me]

Open track day so no real 'racing' and the classes are just based on your times and how many times you have been there. I will do that fun class based stuff next year.

WHRR is a short course (1.4 miles) that requires some repetition and a little inside info to get around quickly. It does not require lots of HP, Miatas do quite well there. Don’t be discouraged. WHRR is a bit of a love/hate thing for some including me.

 

[Boss4Me]

You are going to have to cut the shock towers, I have the jig if you want to borrow it. It is detailed in project superbeater, which you might read through when you get a moment.
I have seen S197s with 315s and they look pretty funky. These cars love soft springs and wimpy rear bars

I would second BS-1 spring comment (from my WHRR experience). I ran my Boss there with soft springs (LS factory) and then later with 630# fronts on C/overs from Kenny Brown Performance. The car was way better with big front spring rates (no rear bar with KB rear grip kit).

 

[twistedneck]

I would second BS-1 spring comment (from my WHRR experience). I ran my Boss there with soft springs (LS factory) and then later with 630# fronts on C/overs from Kenny Brown Performance. The car was way better with big front spring rates (no rear bar with KB rear grip kit).

Ok consider the springs done then!! thanks for the information, i love it. Now.. for that inside knowledge from one Mustang guy to another...

 

[twistedneck]

You are going to have to cut the shock towers, I have the jig if you want to borrow it. It is detailed in project superbeater, which you might read through when you get a moment.
I have seen S197s with 315s and they look pretty funky. These cars love soft springs and wimpy rear bars

Yes, i'm going to dig through your build thread and start cutting. Here are a couple pics you can see that i do have some body roll and that camber would help a ton.

 

[Boss4Me]

Ok consider the springs done then!! thanks for the information, i love it. Now.. for that inside knowledge from one Mustang guy to another...

Hmm we need to go offline for the inside info, those Bimmer friends of yours may be lurking nearby

 

[67GTA]

I have seen S197s with 315s and they look pretty funky.

Hey, who you calling funky??!!

 

[blacksheep-1]

Body roll is your friend...

 

[Boss4Me]

Yes, i'm going to dig through your build thread and start cutting. Here are a couple pics you can see that i do have some body roll and that camber would help a ton.

View attachment 89749

View attachment 89750

There is a TMO member Smallblock I think, who posts WHRR track videos. He is fast and I took away some ideas for being quick there. He has a well prepped 2011 GT

 

[Reloader]

I'm running the full GT500 brake upgrade, front and rear with Hawk DT 70/60 bias. Could not believe the stopping power. This upgrade is a must when going up again the likes of the E46 and newer M3s. Hell, it's a must for going against any of these modern flamethrowers.

10 days on 1st set of rotors with pads worn about 60%.

After a ton of reading I got a set of Nankang AR1s for this weekend's trip to VIR. Frankly, I'm astonished that you were able to keep your steed on the track with those tires! Just setting those bimmer driver's up for round two heh .

You can look at my build page for the particulars. I am very happy with the set up, and really looking forward to see if the 100tw tires help me surprise some of those German products.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Hey, who you calling funky??!!

View attachment 89751

Thanks for the pic!! I was feeling hurt as well....

 

[blacksheep-1]

Thanks for the pic!! I was feeling hurt as well....

I'm sorry... forgive me

 

[Mad Hatter]

Had a lot of of rivalries with M3's over the years, in time trails and later in W2W. With the Boss setup and and good race pads (Not HP+) you should be able to leave them behind. As BS-1 said, the Boss was made to beat the M3. With the better pads and concentrating on late braking and corner exit, you can leave them looking for super charger kits and AP racing brakes in no time.

Just remember that the E92 M3 has no, as in NADA torque. That is were you can make up the time on them. Well it works ok for the V8 M3, not so much for the newer turbos.