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Snow Performance Methanol/Water injection

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Anyone here had any experience with these or thought about adding this system? I just saw a spot on one of the automotive shows last weekend and if you can believe what they were saying, this is a pretty good bump in power for pretty cheap and is safe on the components. I just saw American Muscle had these on sale for $360.
 

PeteInCT

#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
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I know a little about them and my buddy uses one his twin-turbo Audi S4 - take this with a grain of salt:

  • There is a benefit for turbo based engines becuase it lowers intake air temps beyond what the intercooler can handle. They are believed to help extend the life of the turbos by the lower temps also.
  • I believe the increase in HP is not due to the Methanol, but is due to the additional advance in timing you can set your engine to and avoid detonation becuase of the Methanol.

In other words, it does little more than what 104 octance fuel will do for your engine - you need the proper tune to take advantage of it. My friend bumps his tune way up at the track and then keeps the engine happy with the methanol. Once he runs out he bumps it back down to a 93 octane tune.
 
That is basically what my understanding of it is, on turbo cars. It was pretty common for a while, then everyone moved to E85. I don't know how much of a benefit it is for an NA car, but on turbo cars if the flow slowed you could pop your motor pretty easily. Some of the better kits had some sort of flow sensor, and if it cut it would activate a light or something. I don't recall if they go to the point that low flow would trigger the ECU to change parameters (multiple sets of instructions, like the track key does, was pretty common). I would not do it unless you have some way to monitor flow and the ability to change maps on the fly. I never tried it, so I only know from occasionally poking in that area of the forum for my old car.
 
I've personally had methanol/water injection on 2 of my cars. One was a BMW 135i, and one was a dodge SRT-4. Both turbo cars.

The benefits of the water/injection: Higher octane based on your methanol content. Next is the cooling effect of the methanol/water. On my 135i I was seeing 120F to 130F+ intake temps on a 90F day. This was with a upgraded intercooler. With the water/methanol active... My intake temps would drop almost to ambient temp....95F while at high boost! This is why turbo/supercharged cars love methanol/water. Your octane is higher, which will reduce knock, hence an advance in timing. Next, its two fold, you also get the added benefit of a cooler intake charge. Now, with this combination, you can dial your boost up a few PSI and still have a happy/safe motor.

Fail safe's- The kits I used were basic kits.. basically on and off. Now you can get progressive kits which will control the flow of fluid injected into the intake stream. This can also tie into a tune which will pull timing if your not flowing a pre set amount of methanol, or have a no flow condition. So, yes, it is safe.

Now, the real question. How will it work on a Boss. I would like to try it, but I would want a system that is plug N play, for easy removal. Mainly with the MAF sensor, I don't want to cut into any factory wiring. You will see a benefit from the higher octane and cooler intake charge, but the question is how much and is it worth it. I have yet to find this answer.
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
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We were seriously considering doing this on our supercharged race car, never thought of doing it on an N/A car.

Other consideration--where are you putting the meth tank and how much can it hold / duration of use. We were thinking the windshield washer bottle, but that was for a 20-minute track session at a time.
 

PeteInCT

#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
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Our air intake temps will be close to ambient temp I assume since there is little opportunity for the intake air to warm up prior to the throttle body. As for higher octane, someone from FRPP would have to validate that our PCM 'sees' a higher octane fuel and automatically tweaks up the timing for us (if that's the case I'll put 104 track fuel in it on track days !).

In general I suspect for our NA cars that don't have 'on the fly' programing capability past what the TK can do, that this is a no-go.
 
What they all said. I haven't ever seen anyone use this in a N/A application and doubt that there would be a significant benefit to running this on a N/A car.
 
PeteInCT said:
Our air intake temps will be close to ambient temp I assume since there is little opportunity for the intake air to warm up prior to the throttle body. As for higher octane, someone from FRPP would have to validate that our PCM 'sees' a higher octane fuel and automatically tweaks up the timing for us (if that's the case I'll put 104 track fuel in it on track days !).
I think Gary has the scoop on this but if I recall correctly our PCM's will adjust for up to 100 octane but it's not worth the effort tracking a car. Gary?
 

ArizonaBOSS

Because racecar.
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Arizona, USA
Regarding the octane question--I've run 100 in my car on the dyno with and without TK, and there is no difference as far as power is concerned. Not a bad idea to run 100 for track days if you want some extra peace of mind against detonation, however. But $$$$
 
5 DOT 0 said:
PeteInCT said:
Our air intake temps will be close to ambient temp I assume since there is little opportunity for the intake air to warm up prior to the throttle body. As for higher octane, someone from FRPP would have to validate that our PCM 'sees' a higher octane fuel and automatically tweaks up the timing for us (if that's the case I'll put 104 track fuel in it on track days !).
I think Gary has the scoop on this but if I recall correctly our PCM's will adjust for up to 100 octane but it's not worth the effort tracking a car. Gary?
That's what I was told. It will adjust up to 100 octane but the gains are very nominal and not worth the extra $4-$5/gal...as Drew points out. My guess is the timing advance is minimal for engine safety reasons. I suppose an after-market tuner could get more aggressive with it, but then with that obviously come risks.
 
PeteInCT said:
jake74 said:
Would running E85 not do the same thing?

Ethanol vs. Methanol, no ?

E85 will destroy fuel lines and other parts of the fuel system if it is used in a car that does not use E85. E85 will raise octane, but I would not pump it into my Boss.

Methanol is the better option.
 
AZBoss302 said:
PeteInCT said:
jake74 said:
Would running E85 not do the same thing?

Ethanol vs. Methanol, no ?

E85 will destroy fuel lines and other parts of the fuel system if it is used in a car that does not use E85. E85 will raise octane, but I would not pump it into my Boss.

Methanol is the better option.

Not really true on modern cars. There may be exceptions, but typically all that is needed to run E85 is a tune and sometimes fuel pump/injectors since it E85 does not burn as efficiently as gasoline. Plenty of people have been running E85 tunes in mainly the forced induction world for a while without changing anything but injectors/fuel pump and that is strictly from needing more fuel.
 

PeteInCT

#LS-378 - So many Porsche's, so little time....
Moderator
2,848
13
Connecticut
bolecailey said:
AZBoss302 said:
PeteInCT said:
jake74 said:
Would running E85 not do the same thing?

Ethanol vs. Methanol, no ?

E85 will destroy fuel lines and other parts of the fuel system if it is used in a car that does not use E85. E85 will raise octane, but I would not pump it into my Boss.

Methanol is the better option.

Not really true on modern cars. There may be exceptions, but typically all that is needed to run E85 is a tune and sometimes fuel pump/injectors since it E85 does not burn as efficiently as gasoline. Plenty of people have been running E85 tunes in mainly the forced induction world for a while without changing anything but injectors/fuel pump and that is strictly from needing more fuel.

Normal pump gas is 10% Ethanol here in the Northeast (all octane levels). If Ethanol could potentially destroy fuel lines, etc., how do we get away with it at 10% every day? I've heard the same concern for the fuel lines degrading - it just seems odd that it would be a big problem at a higher concentration but not a problem at all in a 10% mixture.
 
Several OEMs from what I remember fought the increased ethanol requirements the government tried to pass, and one of the arguments was that it would hurt the fuel lines and seals on cars that are not designed to be flex fuel. Most of what I have seen has been with carbed cars and equipment but unless they are using stuff designed to deal with the ethanol then they potentially have many of the same issues.

http://news.consumerreports.org/home/2009/06/ethanol-e10-e15-lobbying-group-growth-energy-opei-lawn-mower-engines.html
 
548
0
That's a very good point. I asked that question of the manufacturer and their response as follows:

This is not injected into any area where that’s a concern, sir. This is injected into the intake charge air, not through the injectors at all, and in such a highly atomized, high pressure spray that there is zero chance of pooling anywhere and certainly doesn’t affect any of the components mentioned.



Andy Martin
www.Snowperformance.net

719-633-3811
 
I was referring to the alcohol laced gas, like e85, not injection. I have not heard of injection causing issues other than if the pump failed/tank drained and there was no failsafe. A lot of the turbo import guys were using it until they discovered e85, so I probably would have heard something if it was a problem. The e85 guys change a bunch of the seals and stuff, don't know for sure what as I was never into running hippie juice. Still don't know that it would be worth doing in an NA motor though.
 

Justin

Save the dawn for your dishes!!!
I put this on my 96 supercharged cobra to avoid getting an after cooler....
I put it on thing works just fine. baby it to the tuner (hp performance in orange park, fl) and he says no problem I can tune it (tuning is required) after about 4 hours on the dyno and seeing that my A/F is so pig rich from 4-6 and he isnt getting anywhere I call it quits. He says car is safe to drive hard. so drive hard I did. three days later it ate two pistons (had a built motor that cost me 10 grand) blew the bottom rings out of them. issues I had with the kit besides a no talent tuner were hard to get not to leak all over the place spent the better part of three days chasing leaks. two the fluid isnt cheap and if you are serious dont run washer fluid I bought snow performance boost juice. three it used a lot of fluid if you drive the car hard all the time in the short three days went through 2 gallons.

if you are going to do it research your tuner dont trust the mags cause that guy has been in MMFF and 5.0 and they swear he is awesome....guess he is if your a mag. I think they have come much further with it with the failsafes and warnings. I had to go on faith that it was working with the best kit they had at the time. most of that kit is sitting in a box rotting away now. wouldnt put it on my lawn mower.
 

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