Traction Trouble

[willrc]

A really simplified way is to just take a look under the car at the angle of the front control arms. if they are pointing up from the engine towards the wheel.. The car is lowered to much for the struts. Many springs are made for the street racer look, not so much for actual handling. Never mind that 2" drop in the rear will change the angle of the rear LCA too much. You will have traction problems as well.

Seen a lot for mustangs turn up at the track with slammed suspensions only to find that the cars are slower then they were in stock form.

The fun part sorting everything out and then you start seeing your driving improving and your lap times dropping. Thats what TMO is here for!

The first time I showed up at the track, the suspension had 144,000 miles on it. And the body roll was out of control. Going from a quick left to right turn was quite difficult. So, with the new suspension parts body roll is nonexistent now. There is no trouble with REAR traction, and it is a huge improvement. Are there other things that could be done to improve it, I'm sure there are. This is something I've wanted to do my whole life, and I'm enjoying it nevertheless. Thanks again guys for your advice

 

[willrc]

If your front suspension control arms are angling downward from the wheel end to the frame end you have drastically changed your roll center.
You need to get the Boss 302S Owners manual. This is the manual for the factory race cars, it has specific measurements for what and where to measure for setting up the chassis.
I have it in a pdf file, I just don't know how to attach it here.

Sounds like something I should've read before I started this project. I've had Mustangs for 30 years, but I never knew Track Mustangs existed until a week ago. How old is this organization? But then again, I never tried to track a Mustang before either.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Sounds like something I should've read before I started this project. I've had Mustangs for 30 years, but I never knew Track Mustangs existed until a week ago. How old is this organization? But then again, I never tried to track a Mustang before either.

I think this forum started up with the arrival of the S197 Boss 302. So its being going for a while! For me at least, the word track mustang used to be highly modified track beasts until the arrival of the S197 chassis, with the 2011+ in particular. Phoenix racing with a great pilot took the ford racing track version of the Boss 302 to a very high level. You can see some of @ajaquilante track times that are right up there in gt3 territory.

For example my car is street legal and mostly driven to the track, but it can compete with prepared Caymen GT4 cars. Who would have thought!!

It does not take much money to get the car handling well enough to embarrass all kinds of Germán cars.. And, if you get enough track time under your belt.

 

[TMSBOSS]

They are AMR "Silver Wheel Rear Only (05-09Mustang) and 19x10 and AMR "Silver Wheel 19x8.5 (05-09Mustang). These were the third set ordered, American Muscles website said the previous two rims would fit and didn't, but they did eat the shipping costs, until we found these that actually fit.

Not to bad talk AMR but. They are not one of the most track centric wheels. They are good entry level street orientated wheels. They cater to the broad market. Form dedicated, (read addicted) track rats Apex is a popular go to vender. They have a fantastic reference section on their site which tells you what their wheels will fit. They are a supporting vender here also. Take a look at their site and see if their info helps you

 

[willrc]

@willrc. Don't get discouraged. I did nothing other than changing oil on cars till I got my mustang 10/2020. It took me weeks of studying information here and 8ish months of ordering parts and working on the car here and there to get is where I wanted. It does take cash. Took me a year to catch up. The good news is it gets better over time, like the second year. Remember the goal is to have fun and be safe on the track. Part of the fun is the satisfaction of working on your own car. Patience you'll get there.

Edit: There's other things you can do while getting your Mustang ready. Grab your son and head out and watch some HPDEs, sit in on the learning sessions, watch instructor in car videos, study your track, find member in car vids here: https://trackmustangsonline.com/threads/track-time-videos.1617/page-67#post-301900
It doesn't cost anything but time, fuel to and from the track and sunburn. Most track rats are great people. Who knows you may run into one of us and get offered a ride. My wife and I made friends with guy the took her out all day in his vett until I got passed off. Once your ready you will have an instructor in your car. Keep an instructor in your car as long as you can to maximize learning.

I'm retired. My son lives in Washington and worked for years at Amazon as a Programmer. Before that as a mechanical engineer for Bosch he tested all the pre-production cars like the Corvette Z06, Ford GT-40, and dodge Vipers etc. on their private track in Farmington. But he likes the Mustang still.

 

[KazarS197]

I'm retired. My son lives in Washington and worked for years at Amazon as a Programmer. Before that as a mechanical engineer for Bosch he tested all the pre-production cars like the Corvette Z06, Ford GT-40, and dodge Vipers etc. on their private track in Farmington. But he likes the Mustang still.

Well crap! That's cool! The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I'm sure you are already getting quite a few things figured out. I really don't have much to add. Good luck getting your Mustang sorted!

 

[blacksheep-1]

I think this forum started up with the arrival of the S197 Boss 302. So its being going for a while! For me at least, the word track mustang used to be highly modified track beasts until the arrival of the S197 chassis, with the 2011+ in particular. Phoenix racing with a great pilot took the ford racing track version of the Boss 302 to a very high level. You can see some of @ajaquilante track times that are right up there in gt3 territory.

For example my car is street legal and mostly driven to the track, but it can compete with prepared Caymen GT4 cars. Who would have thought!!

It does not take much money to get the car handling well enough to embarrass all kinds of Germán cars.. And, if you get enough track time under your belt.

I really wish the old Pirelli World Challenge rules were still around, it was a basic map of how to modify the S197 chassis for racing (with the possible exception of the $$$ Penske shocks) it is a great reference for a good running HPDE car. I posted it here someplace, but can no longer find it. Any links to the PWC no longer gets you to the rules package. It is here...somewhere if you have about an hour to search it.
The Phoenix Boss 302 is still competitive in T1 and was the last Boss to win a pro race at St. Pete, before being legislated off the planet so the GT4s could win.

 

[Mad Hatter]

The good news is that the Penske shocks are a lot cheaper now at Cortex!! almost 50% less then before.

 

[Dave_W]

the Penske shocks are a lot cheaper now at Cortex!! almost 50% less then before.

Yes and no. I think the $$$ Penske shocks that @blacksheep-1 was talking about are using the inverted struts that are still available on Penske's website. Depending on number of adjustments, price is around $10k for all 4 corners.

I'm pretty sure the Penske shock kit that @cortexracing sells were an outgrowth from their development effort with Shelby American for SA's S550 fitment (which included shaker rig testing). Cortex then took that development work and applied it to the S197 as well. They do not use inverted struts, but as you said, they are several thousands of dollars less expensive than the fancier Penskes.

 

[67GTA]

Yes and no. I think the $$$ Penske shocks that @blacksheep-1 was talking about are using the inverted struts that are still available on Penske's website. Depending on number of adjustments, price is around $10k for all 4 corners.

I'm pretty sure the Penske shock kit that @cortexracing sells were an outgrowth from their development effort with Shelby American for SA's S550 fitment (which included shaker rig testing). Cortex then took that development work and applied it to the S197 as well. They do not use inverted struts, but as you said, they are several thousands of dollars less expensive than the fancier Penskes.

The inverted strut and the CorteX struts both use the dual bleed insert. I called Penske tech to get the dimensions for the threaded shaft and to see if they had a manual for adjustments, etc. The guy I talked to said the internals are the same, but he preferred the layout of the Cortex because the rebound/compression knobs are on top and easier to adjust. The instruction manual he recommended was the same one they use for their $10K inverted strut. I talked to a guy locally that rebuilds Penske’s and he thinks they’re different internals, but couldn’t say for sure without taking one apart. Just based on his experience with other platforms, but not Mustangs. Same or not, they’re still Penske’s and are better than anything else at the same price point IMO.

 

[Dave_W]

They could very well use the same internals. Penske has a raft of interchangeable piston designs, but changing between them probably falls more under the cateogry of valving than overall design. I'm guessing Cortex was privy to the shaker rig results during valving development of Shelby American's S550 product. The marketing blurb only talks about SA and Penske, but the Cortex logo is clear on the strut housing. It could even be that Cortex did all the development work, and SA is just slapping their branding on them, as they do with several other products.

An inverted strut design is generally stronger compared to a standard shaft when under a bending load. If they were the same price, I'd suffer with adjusters on the bottom for the strength benefit of an inverted design. Side note - Bilstein uses an inverted strut design for their off-the-shelf Mustang struts.

 

[67GTA]

They could very well use the same internals. Penske has a raft of interchangeable piston designs, but changing between them probably falls more under the cateogry of valving than overall design. I'm guessing Cortex was privy to the shaker rig results during valving development of Shelby American's S550 product. The marketing blurb only talks about SA and Penske, but the Cortex logo is clear on the strut housing. It could even be that Cortex did all the development work, and SA is just slapping their branding on them, as they do with several other products.

An inverted strut design is generally stronger compared to a standard shaft when under a bending load. If they were the same price, I'd suffer with adjusters on the bottom for the strength benefit of an inverted design. Side note - Bilstein uses an inverted strut design for their off-the-shelf Mustang struts.

Good point, the local guy I was talking with mentioned the lateral strength of the inverted strut is more rigid by design.

 

[TWF]

Probably same principle as forks on motorcycles. They have what we call standard forks and up side down forks (inverted). On standard lower triple clamps inner tube and on inverted outer tube. Outer tubes are bigger in diameter and bending forces been at lower triple they are stronger than standard. Internals are same, they are basically twin tube shocks with internals been cartridges.

 

[blacksheep-1]

the Penskes are the answer to shocks, that being said, very few people can afford the $10K cost of them and even less can justify it with driver ability. (including me ) so go find some Cortex or other brand , decent ones can be had for $4 to $5K. and spend the rest on brake pads or something.

 

[Mad Hatter]

I went the cheepo route with the DA Konis in the Cortex setup, and I must admit, pretty happy with that car as is.

 

[cortexracing]

Yes and no. I think the $$$ Penske shocks that @blacksheep-1 was talking about are using the inverted struts that are still available on Penske's website. Depending on number of adjustments, price is around $10k for all 4 corners.

I'm pretty sure the Penske shock kit that @cortexracing sells were an outgrowth from their development effort with Shelby American for SA's S550 fitment (which included shaker rig testing). Cortex then took that development work and applied it to the S197 as well. They do not use inverted struts, but as you said, they are several thousands of dollars less expensive than the fancier Penskes.

Thanks for the tag and for the discussion here. A few points of mention...

The Shelby American Penske Setup is a private label deal that we do for them in conjunction with Penske. Penske provides the internals (obviously) but we provide the housings and did a ton of joint development work along with custom valving for that application.

The S197 setup is indeed an offshoot of that and also benefits from a lot of knowledge we have acquired over the years, including when we ran the World Challenge Mustangs with Ford back in the S197 days. Simply put, the Penske setup we have is in our opinion, the best value per dollar shock kit for these cars. We have multiple customers who have shaved 1 or more seconds off their previous best lap time coming out of other reputable coilover brands such as JRI, KW, and others. If you are on Koni Yellow Struts, migrating to a good coilover system with a properly corner weighted and aligned car will do you wonders. We can even valve & properly spring rate the setup if you are a street with occasional track use customer.

Others above have pointed out that the S197 needs some ride height. The "lower center of gravity" discussion goes out the window when the front and rear control arm geometry is all jacked up. The beauty of the coilovers is again, ride height adjustment, allowing you to get in the window of functional but also avoiding the 4x4 look.

In regards to the AMR wheels, I'd agree with mostly everything said above. Apex wheels tend to be the intermediate wheel of choice for tracking cars. Getting as much rubber up front and running a square setup is critical on these cars. 305 square or 315 is the way to go. To do this, you pretty much need coilovers, a good helping of camber, and either properly spec'd wheels or some spacers. The Apex Wheels website has a whole write-up about fitment and we carry all of the necessary items at CorteX to get you set up. The 10.5" AMR wheels do indeed fit up front (with a spacer) and also do hold up on track, though they are heavy and i wouldnt recommend you go bouncing them over sausage curbs at the track.

Feel free to shoot me a DM and I can get you squared away. TMO members get an additional discount as well

 

[TeeLew]

Good point, the local guy I was talking with mentioned the lateral strength of the inverted strut is more rigid by design.

It's all in play. The inverted design has much larger bearing surfaces, so it's stronger, stiffer & has significantly less friction. That friction thing is a biggie for grip and why you see it with high dollar strut cars.