What is a good "beginner" lap time at Road Atlanta?

[TeeLew]

Cruising through corners (no throttle/no brakes) is a dangerous habit to have as you are just a passenger with no control over the car at such point.

I'll play 'Devil's advocate' a little here. It kind of depends how you're doing it. If you're rolling up to corners and just coasting through, then we agree. Having said that, if you're going pro-level fast, there will be corners with float time where you're off both pedals and waiting. To get there, you have to be carrying enough entry speed that anything you do with the pedals is going to make you miss your apex.

When you have the grip of the car completely saturated laterally, you have to just pause and let the car do the work. Patience is a virtue. Does that mean you're a passenger? A little bit. It's like throwing a dart. Once it leaves your hand, you're committed. You just have to be the type of guy that only throws bulls-eyes to do it. For the record, I'm not one of those guys, but I know many who are.

It's kind of like what happens at the end of the straight. Generally speaking, we want to be off the gas and immediately ramping to full brake pressure as quickly as possible. New drivers will often have a lazy throttle release, some coasting and then a lazy brake...for sure this is a bad habit. But, in a lot of cars when you're really at the pointy end, there will be a momentary pause between the throttle lift (immediate, not lazy) and brake application (again, immediate application). Depending on the straight/corner, it may be 70m or so of coasting between the throttle lift and brake app.

TeeLewism #1: The point which you initiate throttle is trivial. The point which you reach full-throttle is vital.

Very often, initiating throttle application early will slow the application speed and delay the full-throttle point, Especially with a nose-heavy car and a powerful V8. Have the patience to let the car turn and then do the two-step stomp. I have posted this Boris video several times, but I believe what he does is just about perfect. He has two throttle points, ~40% and full (which shows as 85% in the vid). He's got a gap between the brake release and throttle app. When he touches the throttle, it's straight to 40%. He pauses for moment, then stomps. A nice, smooth ramp up in throttle from 0-100 isn't as fast, induces understeer and delays full throttle.

 

[TeeLew]

I need to get up there and learn the track. Have a few associates that run it in SCCA

It's a cool place. There's nothing much around it, but the track is fun.

 

[TeeLew]

Yeah 155 mph (limited), 4 times a lap with 30 rabid dogs we might want to keep the wheels in line.

It's best not to think about some of these things as you're entering Indianapolis or the Porsche Curves.

 

[l8tapex]

I'll play 'Devil's advocate' a little here. It kind of depends how you're doing it. If you're rolling up to corners and just coasting through, then we agree. Having said that, if you're going pro-level fast, there will be corners with float time where you're off both pedals and waiting. To get there, you have to be carrying enough entry speed that anything you do with the pedals is going to make you miss your apex.

When you have the grip of the car completely saturated laterally, you have to just pause and let the car do the work. Patience is a virtue. Does that mean you're a passenger? A little bit. It's like throwing a dart. Once it leaves your hand, you're committed. You just have to be the type of guy that only throws bulls-eyes to do it. For the record, I'm not one of those guys, but I know many who are.

It's kind of like what happens at the end of the straight. Generally speaking, we want to be off the gas and immediately ramping to full brake pressure as quickly as possible. New drivers will often have a lazy throttle release, some coasting and then a lazy brake...for sure this is a bad habit. But, in a lot of cars when you're really at the pointy end, there will be a momentary pause between the throttle lift (immediate, not lazy) and brake application (again, immediate application). Depending on the straight/corner, it may be 70m or so of coasting between the throttle lift and brake app.

TeeLewism #1: The point which you initiate throttle is trivial. The point which you reach full-throttle is vital.

Very often, initiating throttle application early will slow the application speed and delay the full-throttle point, Especially with a nose-heavy car and a powerful V8. Have the patience to let the car turn and then do the two-step stomp. I have posted this Boris video several times, but I believe what he does is just about perfect. He has two throttle points, ~40% and full (which shows as 85% in the vid). He's got a gap between the brake release and throttle app. When he touches the throttle, it's straight to 40%. He pauses for moment, then stomps. A nice, smooth ramp up in throttle from 0-100 isn't as fast, induces understeer and delays full throttle.

My very fist track experience. "Sears Point" 94

 

[Dave_W]

My very fist track experience. "Sears Point" 94

In what car?

My first track day / HPDE was Bridgehampton in 1996, in a 1989 Escort GT. Tires were probably BFG Comp T/A R1s that I had from autocross. Flat down the straight and through downhill 1 and 2. The needle on the "federal" 85mph speedo spun all the way around and was pinned to the back side of the peg at 0.

That 85mph speedo and mechanical trip odo made it an awesome Stock class TSD rally car. I could see a 1-2 mph difference in speed, and I could estimate the 1/10 dial rolling to about 0.025 mile. A good navigator with a basic digital stopwatch got us single-digit leg scores a few times.

 

[bnight]

I'll play 'Devil's advocate' a little here. It kind of depends how you're doing it. If you're rolling up to corners and just coasting through, then we agree. Having said that, if you're going pro-level fast, there will be corners with float time where you're off both pedals and waiting. To get there, you have to be carrying enough entry speed that anything you do with the pedals is going to make you miss your apex.

When you have the grip of the car completely saturated laterally, you have to just pause and let the car do the work. Patience is a virtue. Does that mean you're a passenger? A little bit. It's like throwing a dart. Once it leaves your hand, you're committed. You just have to be the type of guy that only throws bulls-eyes to do it. For the record, I'm not one of those guys, but I know many who are.

Just go back and watch Steve video specially turns 1, 2 and the last corner before the finish:

and the one from Pailey and notice the same turns:

Listen to the car in the second video at the same turns about where the revs are moving.

I agree with you that sometimes you have to give time to the car to settle in a corner but we are not in the 70s anymore and with stiff suspension that time is usually very short. Costing on the other hand is not short time waiting for car to settle is long time without pedal inputs and I believe that big V8 cars are mostly driven through the pedals so if you spend time off both that most of the time is a lost time especially when 3-4 seconds of pro lap times. I highly doubt that the car is so much loaded laterally that this costing is needed for so long that's my point. Again I only point it out because I was and still am guilty of the same thing so it's something I try to work on to improve my times and I easy spot it on video because this is how I spot it on my videos as well.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Turn 12 ("last corner before the finish") is scary.

I realize I am a newbie, and maybe I will get used to it, but that is a scary downhill turn onto the straight with a wall coming at you lower and on the outside.

A Ferrari ahead of me spun multiple full revolutions down the straight coming off that turn. Somehow, he did not hit the wall.

I don't know how many years of experience it would be before I stop backing off the throttle some coming downhill right before the apex. Probably like 358 years. And six months.

 

[TeeLew]

Bnight, I'm not talking about vintage cars or decades ago. I'm talking about very fast modern cars at the pointy end of pro fields. Disagree if you wish, but my statements are not going to change and they are not coming from an uninformed position.

ALL racecars are primarily driven through the pedals. If a driver can immediately transition from brake to throttle, then he over-slowed the corner entry. The pause time between the two (even if only a 1/2 second) is how one fills out the sides of the traction circle.

I am not arguing that Steve or Sam is optimum. What I am saying is that these techniques are included in what optimum would be.

 

[TeeLew]

Turn 12 ("last corner before the finish") is scary.

I realize I am a newbie, and maybe I will get used to it, but that is a scary downhill turn onto the straight with a wall coming at you lower and on the outside.

A Ferrari ahead of me spun multiple full revolutions down the straight coming off that turn. Somehow, he did not hit the wall.

I don't know how many years of experience it would be before I stop backing off the throttle some coming downhill right before the apex. Probably like 358 years. And six months.

Just don't hit the apex curb and you'll be OK. But, you're right, it's a corner that will get your attention.



Do yourself a favor, don't YouTube, "Jeremy Dale, Road Atlanta."

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Do yourself a favor, don't YouTube, "Jeremy Dale, Road Atlanta."

Yipes!

Yeah, you knew I was going to look . . .

 

[TeeLew]

Your respect for that corner is not misplaced.

 

[TeeLew]

I guess I'll add something to what I wrote earlier. When doing a historgram comparison from a pro to an Am driver, it's common to see the pro spend a greater percentage of time at zero throttle *and* a greater percentage of time a full throttle. Am's tend to spend more time at partial throttle. Pros tend to be a lot more digital. So, yes, they will have gaps with zero throttle, but they're doing this because it's what allows them to be full-throttle sooner.

This is the origin story of TeeLew's Rule #1.

 

[bnight]

Bnight, I'm not talking about vintage cars or decades ago. I'm talking about very fast modern cars at the pointy end of pro fields. Disagree if you wish, but my statements are not going to change and they are not coming from an uninformed position.

ALL racecars are primarily driven through the pedals. If a driver can immediately transition from brake to throttle, then he over-slowed the corner entry. The pause time between the two (even if only a 1/2 second) is how one fills out the sides of the traction circle.

I am not arguing that Steve or Sam is optimum. What I am saying is that these techniques are included in what optimum would be.

My point is that Pailey is not waiting for the same car to settle into the corner he is not without pedal input ether and he is going faster through the mentioned turns both videos are from the same car which makes it bluntly obvious. For example in the First video going into the second corner (2 minutes 17 seconds in the video) Sam lift and at 2:20 he press the gas and then brake for 3rd corner. This is 3 seconds of time costing up a hill. For the same 3 seconds Pailey (1:20 when he lift) got from 2nd corner all the way to the apex of 3rd and that with a car that was slowing him down. I know we can't be as fast as pro drivers but in the same corner same car Pailey is costing less and carry more speed through the corners hanse he is a lot faster. I'm only making this comment because Sam was explaining how costing was a bad thing to a rookie driver. We all know it is but as we seen from this example is very hard to remove from someone's driving let alone a rookie driver.

And sure you can lift or even cost (Ferrari do it all the time) and this techniques have it's place in track driving and are needed and the gas pedal is not an on/off switch especially in a Mustang but in this particular example this lifting is costing time and a lot of it.

 

[TeeLew]

My point is that Pailey is not waiting for the same car to settle into the corner he is not without pedal input ether and he is going faster through the mentioned turns both videos are from the same car which makes it bluntly obvious.

All of what you wrote is true. I'm talking about philosophy and you're talking about the specifics of the vids in front of us. We're just approaching it from different angles.

 

[steveespo]

I guess I'll add something to what I wrote earlier. When doing a historgram comparison from a pro to an Am driver, it's common to see the pro spend a greater percentage of time at zero throttle *and* a greater percentage of time a full throttle. Am's tend to spend more time at partial throttle. Pros tend to be a lot more digital. So, yes, they will have gaps with zero throttle, but they're doing this because it's what allows them to be full-throttle sooner.

This is the origin story of TeeLew's Rule #1.

So true. Paley mantra is never go to throttle unless you are heading to 100% with maximum speed. "Maintenance" throttle is a safety item taught in HPDE to keep weight on the rear tires during corner entry, which for novices and inter drivers is a good thing. It also induces push on exit by stifling the "scary" rotation, which = out of throttle=delay to full throttle=slow. It is a bad habit you will see all over my videos, I am working on it I promise. I am mad that the AiM data card was full when Sam drove my car, or everyone would see how quickly Sam goes 0-100% every corner. But he also finds the proper brake point, gets his braking done very quickly, and then either trails to help plant the nose and rotate, or just plain rolls speed down to apex using scrub to slow the car further. that is all corner dependent, one size doesn't fit all. So to TeeLew's point they do spend time off throttle/off brake. That window is just compressed, and is much narrower than my hack style. But I will defend myself, I was only 3.2 seconds off Sam, same car, same tire/brakes, same day and I had over 100 lbs of ballast over him as well. LOL. I felt good about what I did and more about what the 21 was capable of. Sam said the car was good for 1:28s with fresh brakes, but he always is ready to go quicker. Wish him luck as he is in Australia the next few days testing for his 2026 GT4 season Down Under. I will post streaming links when he gets them.

 

[bnight]

I am mad that the AiM data card was full when Sam drove my car, or everyone would see how quickly Sam goes 0-100% every corner. But he also finds the proper brake point, gets his braking done very quickly, and then either trails to help plant the nose and rotate, or just plain rolls speed down to apex using scrub to slow the car further. that is all corner dependent, one size doesn't fit all. So to TeeLew's point they do spend time off throttle/off brake. That window is just compressed, and is much narrower than my hack style. But I will defend myself, I was only 3.2 seconds off Sam, same car, same tire/brakes, same day and I had over 100 lbs of ballast over him as well. LOL. I felt good about what I did and more about what the 21 was capable of. Sam said the car was good for 1:28s with fresh brakes, but he always is ready to go quicker. Wish him luck as he is in Australia the next few days testing for his 2026 GT4 season Down Under. I will post streaming links when he gets them.

Yeah my point was you are braking mostly way earlier than him and rolling way less speed. I think your lap was really solid. I just wanted to point out that there was room for improvement in braking later and caring more speed. I'm guilty of the same and for example in slow corners I tend to jump too early on the gas leading to understeer in corner exit here is an example video from one of my local tracks:

Notice mostly on hairpins where I'm picking throttle early and car is pushing wide. But also that lap is a great example of maintenance throttle through corners especially in 1st-2nd complex and in the similar complex later in the lap. So I'm guilty of the same behaviours. Which is why I easy spot them. Since my telemetry doesn't have brake pressure it's hard to see where I'm on the brakes and it looks like cruising more than braking. Hope this helps.

 

[Junkyard Dog]

2015 Ford Mustang GT posts a 1:40.400 Lap Time at Road Atlanta

View the details of this 2015 Ford Mustang GT lap time at Road Atlanta (Full Course) and view fast laps for other Ford Mustangs.

trackmustangsonline.com

This guy has minimal modifications (466 whp) but ran a 1:40.4 on 380 tw tires and cold asphalt. That is beyond amazing. I thought it belonged here to be noticed in a discussion regarding Road Atlanta lap times even though he is obviously not a beginner.

There is a video at the link.