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S197 2011 Mustang V6 Performance Pack: Building the wrong car for D Street Build Thread Profile - S197 Mustangs

phaze1todd

SOLO DS
4
5
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Scranton
NEPA SCCA Mustang V6, eagerly following. Retrofitting PP but so far only 302 Boss Front strut bar and GT500 rear LCR’s (installing prior to this Pocono on 15th). Also first time with MCA 18” wheels with 245/40 Federal 595’s. Good luck at next Pocono!

0022DDC0-20DE-4171-ABBF-48A54B6A7A92.jpeg
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
588
687
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
Just watched your video from the 8/2 a/x. Were you looking/thinking further ahead in the course this time? Were you able to play the mental movie before each run? Did those change how "hurried" or surprised you felt as you drove the course?

If I was too pick one thing from the video, I'd say you want to be what we call "earlier" in the slaloms (0:21, 0:50, 1:05). As you pass each cone, the car is either pointed straight ahead or still pointed "out" from the slalom line. Generally, you want the car pointed slightly "in" as you pass each cone. If you hit a cone in the slalom, you should hit it with the rear tire, not the front. Try to "backside" the cones.

One thing that trips up people when they're in a slalom is thinking that when they start steering in the other direction, the tires start steering the car in the other direction at the same time. If the wheel is at 9 and you start steering to the right, the tires are still steering the car to the left (in smaller amounts) until the wheel is straight. Only when the wheel crosses 12 o'clock do the tires start steering the car in the other direction. So to "backside" the cones in a slalom, you probably need to start turning the wheel in the other direction about midway between cones.

Also remember "Smooth is fast." Again in the slaloms, you tend to make a big crank to the steering angle in one direction, straighten the wheel, then make a big crank in the other direction. You should be smoother with the steering. Comparing to a slalom skier, they are able to "jump" between carving to the right & left and cut into the snow with their ski edges, but a car can't do that. If you try to change the direction of the front wheels too quickly, you'll start to slide the front tires and cause understeer. If you drew the car's path in the slalom, it's like you were making a triangle wave, but you want to be more like a sine wave. Non-artist's visualization (I also tried showing "early" in the sine wave):
1597302061582.png
Getting "early" in the slalom may help this, as being early won't feel as rushed as being late, allowing your brain to be less panicked and smooth out your actions. The other trick I have is to look at the last cone all the way through slalom. Humans have better visual acuity below their line of sight than above it. Coming into a slalom, if you focus on the first cone in the slalom, your eyes & brain can't process all the cones in the slalom as easily as if you focus on the last cone. Looking at the last cone (and thus seeing all the cones more clearly) also gives your brain visual clues on the spacing that can more quickly build a subconscious eye-hand pattern for the rhythm of the slalom you want to implement as you start it.
 

phaze1todd

SOLO DS
4
5
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Scranton
Fantastic explanation! Yes, slow is smooth and smooth is fast. One thing I see of other drivers which I think may be wrong, on tight slalom sections, is pumping the gas. I try to maintain consistent throttle input through these sections. Then again, I could be wrong... that is why I still keep an “N” on the side of my car...
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
588
687
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
Feathering the throttle in & out is more of a "stage 2" slalom technique. Concentrate on finding a good line and rhythm with the steering using a constant throttle first. When that becomes natural and you can judge a good maximum speed when entering the slalom, then you can eek out the last few tenths by modulating the throttle.

The throttle modulation is based on the same physics of grip as a single turn. Each tire only has so much grip; that grip increases with more weight/downforce (but less than 1:1), and you can shift weight between the tires with throttle, brake and steering. With the steering wheel straight, you're not asking the tires to use any grip for lateral acceleration (turning), so you can use all the grip for longitudinal acceleration (go & stop). Once you start turning the steering wheel, you're asking the tires to use some of their grip laterally, so you have to ask for less longitudinal grip - the more you turn the steering wheel, the less you can change your speed (slower or faster). Instead of coming completely off the brake on turn-in, gradually easing off the brake as you increase steering and turn down to the apex maximizes the lateral/longitudinal sum of grip, and also uses the weight transfer to give the front tires a bit more grip (at the expense of the rear tires, but that promotes rotation which we want in autocross). Easing into the throttle as you unwind the wheel after the apex again maxes the total grip, and transfers weight onto the rear tires for better grip under RWD acceleration.

Now apply that cycle of gradually reducing speed while increasing steering, and increasing speed while reducing steering, to what you're doing with the steering in a slalom. Each transition becomes a small turn, and they're all linked together to form the slalom. So after each peak in the sine wave in my previous post, you're unwinding the wheel and can add a small amount of throttle. Then as the steering wheel crosses 12 o'clock, you ease off the throttle, shifting a bit of weight onto the front tires for better turning. Then you get to the next peak, and start unwinding and adding throttle again. This is maybe a 5-15% change in throttle, done smoothly.

Work on the eye-hand coordination first, as that will get you 95% of your gain. Once you don't have to think about the eye-hand, then add in the foot for the last 5% of your speed. Trying to learn eye-hand-foot at the same time can be too much for some novices, especially for the smooth, small amounts of throttle you want for this.
 
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Got a chance to bring the mustang back out yesterday with Motorsports Northeast (non SCCA club). Fun fast course that was very flowing, the car felt very balanced and put down some decent times (although the Camaro 1LE turbo I've been chasing all year blew me away with a flyer on his last run). Placed 4th in class (D class but very different group of cars than SCCA), 21st in PAX, and 28th fastest raw out of 80.

Still haven't been co-driving the car with my father due to high brake temps and fear of losing the pedal (exacerbated by COVID autocross formats with hot lapping in small run groups). Using an infrared thermometer on a 92 degree day I was seeing peak rotor temps of ~450 degrees with one driver, not exactly confidence inspiring to bring my dad back in for co-drives. Regardless, the mustang was able to out raw/PAX his 94 Miata R which is always fun.

Next event won't be until early September, will be finishing the season out in D Street then re-evaluating which direction we'll be going next year to get back to co-driving (maybe CAM-C or possibly switching up cars).

J

 
Welp, been awhile since I've gotten around to posting in here as things have gotten hectic with the reopening of schools in NYC. Nevertheless, I've been continuing my campaign with the car throughout the tri-state area with focus on events with the hyper competitive NNJR SCCA. As of right now I'm safely placed in 3rd in points in DS with NNJR, which although is not a bad thing, isn't as competitive as I had hoped versus the top cars in DS. Recently flipped the Re71R's after ~120 runs and they'll have plenty of life to finish the season deep into November.

Reflecting at this point in the season, but it is safe to say all the issues with the S197 chassis that I was warned about prior to this foray from Vorschlag & Strano came to fruition this season. The largest issue proved to be the brake setup which has been rectified for single driver use, but still isn't confidence inspiring with a co-driver during the COVID heat formatting. Additionally issues with repeated advancetrac intervention (despite the system being turned off/resetting the system between runs) and the subsequent rear brake wear has not been fun. Finally the rear trac-lok diff seems to have finally given up the ghost with 85k miles and consistently spins the inside rear tire even with the Strano bar on the softest setting.

I'm sure that the setup could be further developed/honed with pinched 275 width tires on the 8.5 inch Enkei (like the DS winning Camaro turbo did in 2017), a better alignment (never was able to get more than -1 degree even with slotting/crash bolts), higher temp pads/castrol SRF, a rebuilt rear diff, and maybe an 18-20mm rear sway. Maybe running with the abs fuse pulled to disable advancedtrac might prove helpful (or lead to some flat spotted rubber lol), but it might be something to toy with.

Regardless, I think my time with DS is done after this season. The car just isn't hanging with the Type R or even a well driven Evo X/veteran campaigned Turbo 1le Camaro.

Still working out the logistics on what it would take to make the car entertaining locally in CAM-C, but given my recent engagement in August I'm not sure throwing money at the uncompetitive car is the way to go.

Here's some footage of the car from this weekend with NNJR, not particularly good driving here and was well off the pace of 1st in DS (not to mention the first event on flipped tires is always sketchy).


Until next time,
J
 

Ludachris

Chris
Staff member
Moderator
1,446
1,677
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
5-10 Years
Newcastle, CA
Welp, been awhile since I've gotten around to posting in here as things have gotten hectic with the reopening of schools in NYC. Nevertheless, I've been continuing my campaign with the car throughout the tri-state area with focus on events with the hyper competitive NNJR SCCA. As of right now I'm safely placed in 3rd in points in DS with NNJR, which although is not a bad thing, isn't as competitive as I had hoped versus the top cars in DS. Recently flipped the Re71R's after ~120 runs and they'll have plenty of life to finish the season deep into November.

Reflecting at this point in the season, but it is safe to say all the issues with the S197 chassis that I was warned about prior to this foray from Vorschlag & Strano came to fruition this season. The largest issue proved to be the brake setup which has been rectified for single driver use, but still isn't confidence inspiring with a co-driver during the COVID heat formatting. Additionally issues with repeated advancetrac intervention (despite the system being turned off/resetting the system between runs) and the subsequent rear brake wear has not been fun. Finally the rear trac-lok diff seems to have finally given up the ghost with 85k miles and consistently spins the inside rear tire even with the Strano bar on the softest setting.

I'm sure that the setup could be further developed/honed with pinched 275 width tires on the 8.5 inch Enkei (like the DS winning Camaro turbo did in 2017), a better alignment (never was able to get more than -1 degree even with slotting/crash bolts), higher temp pads/castrol SRF, a rebuilt rear diff, and maybe an 18-20mm rear sway. Maybe running with the abs fuse pulled to disable advancedtrac might prove helpful (or lead to some flat spotted rubber lol), but it might be something to toy with.

Regardless, I think my time with DS is done after this season. The car just isn't hanging with the Type R or even a well driven Evo X/veteran campaigned Turbo 1le Camaro.

Still working out the logistics on what it would take to make the car entertaining locally in CAM-C, but given my recent engagement in August I'm not sure throwing money at the uncompetitive car is the way to go.

Here's some footage of the car from this weekend with NNJR, not particularly good driving here and was well off the pace of 1st in DS (not to mention the first event on flipped tires is always sketchy).


Until next time,
J
Inputs looked pretty smooth to me. The big question is, did you have fun? :)
 
Inputs looked pretty smooth to me. The big question is, did you have fun? :)

A day spent at the track/autocross is better than just about anything else, so of course fun was had ;)

The tough part for me has been making the mental adjustment from being in a top car in HS last year and trophying on tour, to consistently losing locally in a new platform. I'm not wealthy enough to chase the top "street" class cars every couple years like the rest of the autocross lunatics at chasing the dream with the SCCA

Finding a sustainable place to be more competitive while keeping the car 4 seasons daily drivable in NYC is the burden I've place on myself this offseason (or ditching for a new paltform)

Will be inquiring about setup suggestions soon after I put the car back into winter mode in November

Best,
J
 

Dave_W

Cones - not just for ice cream
588
687
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
20+ Years
Connecticut
Looks like a good run from the video. You're nice and tight on the cones in the slaloms. The one section that stood out to me starts at about 33 sec. - it looks like you pinch the entry of the right-hander and are about 2-3 feet inside of the "exit limit" cone, then you make a pretty much straight line to the next left-hander so you are taking a tighter entry than you have to. Hard to tell without walking the course, but I'd probably try a wider entry to the right-hander and get onto that last outside cone to "straighten" the corner more and allow a higher apex speed, then after the right-hander move the car to the right maybe 8-15 feet on the way to the left-hander to open up the entry and carry more speed through it as well. So running kind of an S-bend between those 2 corners.

Also, the same kind of thing from the end of the slalom at 0:47 into the next left sweeper. You're nice and tight on the last slalom cone, but you don't actually have to be. I'd get on the throttle at the second-to-last slalom cone, let the car float out to the right more past the last cone, and take a wider entry to the left-hand sweeper to carry more speed through it.

Especially with the diff on the way out, you're limited on your acceleration, so you have to choose a line that really minimizes bleeding off speed - a momentum line. Drive the Mustang like a big Miata. :) Unfortunately, I don't think you can use the carbon clutch rebuild kit on your car in Street class.

Is the Camaro driver Bruce Bellom? He's a very good driver. Can't remember if NNJR allows it, but you might ask Bruce to take a drive in your car with you as passenger. Since the Camaro is about the same size, he can also give you some good feedback on how your setup/balance compares to his.
 
Looks like a good run from the video. You're nice and tight on the cones in the slaloms. The one section that stood out to me starts at about 33 sec. - it looks like you pinch the entry of the right-hander and are about 2-3 feet inside of the "exit limit" cone, then you make a pretty much straight line to the next left-hander so you are taking a tighter entry than you have to. Hard to tell without walking the course, but I'd probably try a wider entry to the right-hander and get onto that last outside cone to "straighten" the corner more and allow a higher apex speed, then after the right-hander move the car to the right maybe 8-15 feet on the way to the left-hander to open up the entry and carry more speed through it as well. So running kind of an S-bend between those 2 corners.

Also, the same kind of thing from the end of the slalom at 0:47 into the next left sweeper. You're nice and tight on the last slalom cone, but you don't actually have to be. I'd get on the throttle at the second-to-last slalom cone, let the car float out to the right more past the last cone, and take a wider entry to the left-hand sweeper to carry more speed through it.

Especially with the diff on the way out, you're limited on your acceleration, so you have to choose a line that really minimizes bleeding off speed - a momentum line. Drive the Mustang like a big Miata. :) Unfortunately, I don't think you can use the carbon clutch rebuild kit on your car in Street class.

Is the Camaro driver Bruce Bellom? He's a very good driver. Can't remember if NNJR allows it, but you might ask Bruce to take a drive in your car with you as passenger. Since the Camaro is about the same size, he can also give you some good feedback on how your setup/balance compares to his.

Always appreciate the insights on my driving Dave, I definitely agree with your feedback about those sections. I haven't been make adjustments behind the wheel as quickly between run this year as I have in the past, although I come out at/close to the pace of the top drivers I'm not finding time as well with this car as I have in others. Definitely had more success last year using solo storm data and bouncing my ideas off my co-driver, but alas COVID and the braking issues have taken that edge away.

The Camaro driver is in fact Bruce Bellom, he's great competition to have around. I had a lot of fun running against his HS mini 2 years ago, but he has taken things to another level in the Camaro this year. I don't foresee a co-driving situation coming up this year with Bruce due to the COVID rules, but we usually discuss the course/status of DS in the paddock.

I'll definitely try to pick his brain some more at the next event, maybe we'll see you around at an event at NNJR next year?
 
Another weekend of racing down as the oddball 2020 SCCA season is coming to a close here in the Northeast. Came out fast with NNJR this past Saturday on cold tires/cold pavement but could not keep up as the fast guys continued to improve. Blew my last two runs with driver errors (in the same spot nonetheless), but would've been within 1.5 seconds of the class leaders. Unfortunately had to settle for 4th place in DS and 60th out of 100 in PAX (with 20 Pro drivers in attendance), not my best outing by far.

Today, prior to writing this post it dawned on me that I've been driving the car around the same issues all season and haven't really made any major adjustments within the rules despite having parts at my disposal to do so. Prior to this week's event at Tobay Beach with the Metro NY Porsche club I intend to shake things up a bit.

Given the persistent inside rear wheel spin on corner exit (which I've been attributing to the rear diff being on its last legs), I'll be making a swaybar adjustment to the car. In referencing TMO S197 spring/swaybar rate thread I'm thinking that the strain 1 inch bar is still too stiff on its softest setting, so I'm going to see if swapping in a 22mm V6 bar makes a perceivable difference in how the rear feels/puts down power.

I've also got an Eibach 36mm front swaybar sitting around that I might swap in to see how I like it (maybe the car will behave more like a fatter ES Miata?). Might as well make the most of the last couple events this year...

Oh and as a side note the Motul RBF 600 is looking pretty cooked after a handful of events, very very dark, but no brake failure yet... the joys of stock class racing😅
 
Another weekend passed and another autox in the books. Cannot believe I waited this long to play around with the setup as opposed to sticking with Strano's National Winning FS s197 setup from ~2013. Swapping to the stock V6 rear bar definitely helped mitigate inside tire spin and made putting the power down on corner exit easier. I might even go so far as to say that the car was less apt to have advancetrac intervene (or maybe just more stable without the 1inch rear bar).

Regardless of what the reason was, I was much faster in the car this week with no other setup changes. Fortunately my Camaro competitor, Bruce, showed up and I was within .5 second of him all morning despite being dirty. In the afternoon I had to drive a little more conservatively to get a clean time and Bruce was able to throw down a flyer on his last run, but the gap was much closer than it has been for the rest of the season. Overall finished 21 out of 80 raw at the event (PCA non Porsche pax sucks).

PCA Tobay Beach Mustang V6 PP

Had some more issues with the brakes on a couple runs, although my braking may have been late at times, it seemed like braking power was diminished overall. Ordered a set of Powerstop Track day pads as a last ditch effort to make the 13.2 inch GT brakes work more consistently and will be installing them with the Eibach front sway bar prior to this weekends event. Hoping to have some good competition this Sunday running with the PCA prior to running the season final at NNJR (where multiple national champs will be present in DS).

-J
 
How are you running all these autocross days in New York!? I'm in Missouri where Covid is a complete afterthought but all of our autocross sites have been shut down this whole year.

Despite how bad things are up here (although much better than in March/April/May), it seems like the powers that be in the Tri-State area were gracious enough to view autocross as a socially-distanced activity and permitted multiple clubs/site to run this summer/fall.

Usually under normal conditions we've run events from March (cold) to early November (cold) with 6-7 clubs at multiple venues. The past couple years it hasn't been uncommon for us to race 20+ events locally plus travel to a few tour events on the East Coast.

This year in NY with stricter COVID guidelines our SCCA season was limited to 4 events, our PCA has run 3 events with 2 more scheduled, and our BMW club had 2-3 events. NNJR SCCA was able to get permission to run much earlier (June), and we've had 8 events so far with the season finale slated for Nov 1, NNJR PCA had a couple events at Pocono Raceway infield, and MSNE has had a few.

Autocross has been one of the few outlets we've had to get through this whole COVID mess, didn't realize that other regions were less fortunate than us on that front. Hopefully, you'll be able to get back out there soon!

BTW love your V6 build thread, great to see some others on here pushing the limits of the "slow" ponys lol
 

Bill Pemberton

0ld Ford Automotive Racing Terror
6,837
5,900
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Blair, Nebraska
PatientZero,

You need to consider, next year, coming up to Lincoln, Nebraska more often than Divisionals or Nationals, as almost all the events other than Nationals and Spring Nationals were held - even a few were added back. Sure it is a little drive , but that was pretty common back in the 80s ( I drove from Salina, to Wichita, Topeka, KC, and Lincoln ) where autocrossers drove over 3 hours to play .

Something to consider!
 
Late post from last week's event with Metro NY PCA at Tobay Beach. Much faster course than the week before with much colder weather, started the day in the mid 40's and never really saw temps higher than 55 in the afternoon. Unfortunately without co-driving, there's a lot of wasted cold tire runs as a result which puts a damper on things. Put down my fastest clean time early on in the morning which was good enough for 17th fastest Raw overall at the event, was faster but dirty on a few other runs which would've slotted me down to 12th fastest raw out of 56 drivers.

Fastest Clean Run PCA Tobay 10/25

Sloppy and Slow

The Powerstop Trackday pads were pretty awesome, and I much prefer them to the Porterfield R4S previously on the car. They took 1 run to get heat in them to really start grabbing, but they definitely have more initial bite than the Porterfields. This provided more confidence when threshold braking on the heavy pony, but if you are even the slightest bit late on a ~70mph brake zone, the car punishes you heavily (certainly doesn't behave any like the lighter fwd cars I cut my teeth on in autox). Will still be going to 4 piston Brembos next year if I take the car over to CAM-C, but thats a story for another post..

The big news is the NNJR Season finale, which will be a true measuring stick for the S197 V6 PP. The event will be somewhat of a "mini national" with a TON of talent coming over to drive in DS. I know at least two National Champs driving in the DS field and many other regional trophy winners traveling as far out as West Virginia coming to run with the club. So far there are 12 cars in class: 5 of which are Civic Type R drivers (the overdog of DS), a co driven Camaro 1le turbo, an eco X, Focus RS, FRS, a random Mercedes, and the lonely V6 pony. Looking for a competent codriver/tirewarmer if anyone might be interested, gonna need as much heat as I can get to try and keep pace with the fast guys (who also have co-drivers). Would put the old man in the co driver spot, but he's got a trophy to defend in GS.

I know I won't be driving the car in DS next year, but this will be one last hoorah to see where the car is really at in the mix.

Wish me luck,
J
 
And just like that, the 2020 autocross season is over... Was able to sneak in two more events at the beginning of November, the season finales with NNJR SCCA and Metro NY PCA.

The NNJR season finale was an incredible experience, felt almost like a mini SCCA tour event in D Street and it was the most highly contested/watched class of the day. We had 12 drivers in class and I let a friend (1st year autocrosser) tire warm for me. With a plethora of driver talent in class I had to fight in order to keep within 1.7 seconds of leader (2019 national champ ) in a 2021 Civic Type R. I took 9th for the day which was lower in the ranks than I had hoped, but a tleast 4th-9th place were all within .6 seconds of each other. The Type R is just incredible to watch on course, it really is "the package deal", I don't think there is a car that is even close to the power/grip/flexibility in the class. Regardless it was a fun day and despite the beatdown we took in the mustang in class, I PAX'd 17th overall out of 89 cars for the day (only because it rained during the Pro class heat in the afternoon 😂). With the seasons points finally tallied I took 3rd in D Street within arguably the most competitive club in the Northeast, I'll take that as a success given my struggles with the car this season!


Somehow we had weather in the 70's the past weekend in NY, so I drove the old mans E Street 1994 Miata R-package this past Sunday with some year-old RE71Rs. Fortunately I drove pretty well and was able to put down times within 2 tenths of a local national trophying driver in a 1999 NB Miata. A fairly positive way to end the season, albeit not in the mustang.

What I've learned this year is that with some decent driving the s197 V6 PP is a midpack car in DS at best and that I've still got a lot to learn about driving RWD platforms.

Pros:
-cheap entry into DS (9-12k compared to 35k+ for the top cars)
-Plenty of room for 275 width tires on the 8.5 square wheels
-Tire wear was very good on the car despite only getting -1degrees camber
-3.7 v6 had plenty of power for fast courses
-3.31 rear gears gave ~70mph in 2nd gear
-factory trac-lok diff
-Fairly lightweight at 34xxlbs with premium package and glassroom (Im sure with a lighter exhaust, base interior, and no glass roof you could be in the 33xx range or lower)
-Sounds awesome with factory gt500 mufflers and Ford racing X-pipe

Cons:
-Too much rear sway bar from the factory (or Strano's old national setup) makes putting down power in low speed corners difficult (also causes advancetrac to engage more often... even when off)
-Advance-trac comes back on repeatedly despite being shut off, need to restart car before runs to reset it
-Brakes were miserable with 2 drivers, not enough cooling for hot lapping in summer heat (arguably only suitable for a single driver without serious track pads and Castrol SRF)
-Brake dive with stock spring rates (although the RE suspension Bumpstops were a much needed improvement)

If I were to try to run this car again in DS next year I would do the following (in case someone wants to pick up where I left off):

1) Don't settle for an alignment that is less than maxed out at the -2 degrees that most people were getting in FS back in 2011-2014, the car could use more front grip
2) 275 tires all around, probably the new Falken RT660 or Rival 1.5S
3) Try some very very aggressive pads. The Porterfield R4S wasn't able to handle the heft/heat generated by the car. The Powerstop trackday pads were much better but very abrasive to the rotor and threw sparks consistently even at autox speeds (maybe would try the GLoc R6 next)
4) try a 20mm or 18mm rear sway to help put the power down
5)Think about pulling the ABS fuse to fully disable advancetrac and drive it without ABS on course


It looks like I'll have to create a new thread this winter dedicated to building the "Wrong Car" for CAM-C next year....

-J
 

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