A funny thing happened to my brakes at the race track

[TMSBOSS]

A rebuild with priority on cooling is likely the way to go. Will your current system get you buy with cooling improvements? It could. Remove the shields in the rear and replace the fronts with ducted shields. 3" for sure. The cost difference is minimal between 2.5 and 3 and no real cutting is required for 3". Rear brakes? Most of us run stock calipers on the rear. Remove the dust shields and bleed off fluid each day and they work. Some have installed the larger GT-500 rotors with either a spacer on the stock system or with GT-500 mounting brackets.

The key will be cooling. Get as much air to the rotors. Ducts on front and removal or the shields in the rear. The Boss owners supplement suggest this.

Titanium shields are a must for the front. I have not needed shields in the rear.

Consider a system which can use stock size rotors. Several members here have done this for convenience and economy. I still run the stock brembos. A rebuild every other season has been enough for the front calipers. Rotor blanks under $100.00 are the main reason to consider stock sizes. Brembos from a GT-500 or Boss come to mind. Stock blank rotors are low on bling but high on logic. Some tracks consume brakes regardless what you do. Road America is one. Long straights with serious braking zones, 3 per lap. Long cool down between braking points.

If you will be slowing from 145, much like at RA, brakes will require replacement of rotors and pads often. I ran 10 track days at smaller tracks on one set of rotors and two sets of pads. One weekend at RA slowing from 145 on the front straight, 135 going into 5 and 130 at Canada corner and a set of brakes was consumed in one weekend. Rotors and pads gone.

Finding a way to reduce the cost of consumables is a good idea. Stay away from drilled rotors, they like to crack at the holes.

Ironically, running a economical system may not save you money. Somehow we always find a few more track days to spend the savings on.

Good luck with your brakes.

 

[Grant 302]

Some have installed the larger GT-350 rotors with either a spacer on the stock system or with GT-350 mounting brackets.

Pretty sure you mean the '13-'14 GT500 rear rotors, brackets, etc.

 

[Fabman]

Anybody take their plastic wheel wells out or do you leave them in and trim for hose clearence?

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Trim

 

[Grant 302]

There was a small piece I removed on the driver side that was attached to the subframe rail on both cars. On the Boss I did some light trimming, but on the GT I left most of it intact without trimming. Pretty sure the '05 to '09 cars don't have as much plastic under there.

Edit:
Lots less plastic on the '05-'09:


'10-'14:

 

[Mad Hatter]

You can leave them in. I put a short section of pvc pipe were my 305 used to rube. But with 295's up front they fit fine.

Sent from my SM-G900M using Tapatalk

 

[Fabman]

Sweet, thanks everybody....hopefully I'll get this dialed in with enough time to harass a few more Vetts before it starts raining.
I mean, I don't go looking for them, really. They just keep going by me backwards, it the strangest thing.

 

[TMSBOSS]

Don't get too close to the Vettes. Engine failures are too common with that breed. I have seen two on track. They fail and close the track for 30-45 minutes for clean up.

Yes, GT-500 rear rotors. Sorry

 

[Fabman]

Well, there goes my FR500 module


"Jegs has been informed by the manufacturer that part #957-555-6016 has been discontinued.
It is necessary to cancel this part from your order."

 

[Mad Hatter]

But now you have more money to spend on your brakes discs and calipers!!

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Well, there goes my FR500 module


"Jegs has been informed by the manufacturer that part #957-555-6016 has been discontinued.
It is necessary to cancel this part from your order."

What I would do is contact KohR Motorsports and ask them what it would take to retrofit a 2011+ ABS block and BOSS-R/S electronic module to a 2005 car.

 

[modernbeat]

I see our cooling ducts have already been mentioned. If you don't already have cooling ducts, do that. We've found it's a must-do item for the Mustangs. After that, keeping track of your brake temps and wear patterns can help you select the right pad, so you don't end up running outside the intended heat range.

As an aside, I looked at a LOT of brake kits trying to find a vendor that (first) really knew what they were doing and (second) could spec out different parts for different needs rather than sell us street brakes for racecars or a one-size-fits-all racing brake. Very few brake companies have really good engineers on staff that understand all the issues with performance brakes, and in particular the issues with a very high performance HPDE or dual-duty requirements (like keeping a rear parking brake). During this search, Terry and I were introduced to the owners of Powerbrake. We were both impressed with the work they did, and their recent history and good results in professional series is appealing.

We recently ordered a set of brakes from them for an E46 TimeTrials car. It is from their previous series, but it's been a great setup and we have been very happy with it's features and the well thought out kit and spares package.



We have ordered our first set of their new style calipers, stiffer and lighter with some additional machining, for an S197 we support. It's a front and rear kit that works with the non-floating rear axle. We will share the install and on-track impressions when they arrive.

On the ABS, we have done some work on using the 2011+ ABS for retrofits. There are some constraints, but fitting it to the early S197 would be one of the easier models to put it in.

 

[2012-Boss]

What I would do is contact KohR Motorsports and ask them what it would take to retrofit a 2011+ ABS block and BOSS-R/S electronic module to a 2005 car.

You might also ask Dean / Kohr is he still has the FR500 module on the shelf.

 

[Fabman]

I see our cooling ducts have already been mentioned. If you don't already have cooling ducts, do that. We've found it's a must-do item for the Mustangs. After that, keeping track of your brake temps and wear patterns can help you select the right pad, so you don't end up running outside the intended heat range.

As an aside, I looked at a LOT of brake kits trying to find a vendor that (first) really knew what they were doing and (second) could spec out different parts for different needs rather than sell us street brakes for racecars or a one-size-fits-all racing brake. Very few brake companies have really good engineers on staff that understand all the issues with performance brakes, and in particular the issues with a very high performance HPDE or dual-duty requirements (like keeping a rear parking brake). During this search, Terry and I were introduced to the owners of Powerbrake. We were both impressed with the work they did, and their recent history and good results in professional series is appealing.

We recently ordered a set of brakes from them for an E46 TimeTrials car. It is from their previous series, but it's been a great setup and we have been very happy with it's features and the well thought out kit and spares package.



We have ordered our first set of their new style calipers, stiffer and lighter with some additional machining, for an S197 we support. It's a front and rear kit that works with the non-floating rear axle. We will share the install and on-track impressions when they arrive.

On the ABS, we have done some work on using the 2011+ ABS for retrofits. There are some constraints, but fitting it to the early S197 would be one of the easier models to put it in.

I went to the Vorshlag site last night and it said the cooling ducts were not available, so I ordered some Steeda units from Jegs instead. ($100.00 less there than on the steeda site) I talked at length with the Guys at Baer and they were adamant that this brake setup is up to the task if cooled properly so I am rebuilding the current setup to get me through the last few events until this winter when I will be upgrading the brakes and many other things. Please keep me in the loop on brakes and other products. Baer thinks my brakes were already dragging which is why they failed in the panic stop. I took them apart and the pads were down to almost metal (they were 50% at the start of the day) and the pistons were hyperextended and jammed in the bores, so that's the sticksion up front. I have another set of stock rear calipers and race pads for the rear so just some new rotor rings and we are good to go. I am not clear exactly what this module has to do with all this....maybe someone can explain it to me how it works and why a different one is needed. When I was racing stock cars I just used a bias pedal with a couple of howe masters and a knob on the dash to control bias. Super simple. All this computer stuff has got my head swirling.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

The FR500S and BOSS R/S ABS modules are tuned specifically for use with the type of deceleration rates you get with race tires; the stock controller can freak out and go into ice mode with really good tires because it doesn't "believe" the input it is seeing.

The motorsport modules don't have that issue. And the BOSS R/S module (possibly the 500S module, not sure) is tuned to deal with split mu situations where you are braking with wheels on two different surfaces (painted curb/asphalt, asphalt/concrete, etc) so again the ABS will function properly and not freak out.

As far as the electronic bias adjustment, that's all in the module. The remaining knobs you have to play with are brake compound aggressiveness and rotor size (basically altering the available brake torque to suit your bias needs).

 

[Fabman]

The FR500S and BOSS R/S ABS modules are tuned specifically for use with the type of deceleration rates you get with race tires; the stock controller can freak out and go into ice mode with really good tires because it doesn't "believe" the input it is seeing.

The motorsport modules don't have that issue. And the BOSS R/S module (possibly the 500S module, not sure) is tuned to deal with split mu situations where you are braking with wheels on two different surfaces (painted curb/asphalt, asphalt/concrete, etc) so again the ABS will function properly and not freak out.

As far as the electronic bias adjustment, that's all in the module. The remaining knobs you have to play with are brake compound aggressiveness and rotor size (basically altering the available brake torque to suit your bias needs).

The bias was set perfect (split friction) the brakes really worked amazingly well until....they didn't.
All was rosey until the panic stop.

 

[BigTaco]

The FR500S and BOSS R/S ABS modules are tuned specifically for use with the type of deceleration rates you get with race tires; the stock controller can freak out and go into ice mode with really good tires because it doesn't "believe" the input it is seeing.

The motorsport modules don't have that issue. And the BOSS R/S module (possibly the 500S module, not sure) is tuned to deal with split mu situations where you are braking with wheels on two different surfaces (painted curb/asphalt, asphalt/concrete, etc) so again the ABS will function properly and not freak out.

As far as the electronic bias adjustment, that's all in the module. The remaining knobs you have to play with are brake compound aggressiveness and rotor size (basically altering the available brake torque to suit your bias needs).

I think this hits it on the head. I would take this comprehensive approach and will say again, go with the Brembo Racing front kit for the S197. Everything was calibrated and specified to work together. TV dinner simple. This may not be the cheapest route, but it is a proven, durable solution. In addition, there is Kohr and Cortex to bounce ideas off of for tire and pad options. In the end, you may spend a bit more, but you'll be done and definitely not dealing with the situation you are in now.

I will not even try to front as if I have as much track time and experience as most on this forum but I do echo the observation/opinion that you can do a lot better now than Baer.....

 

[Fabman]

I think this hits it on the head. I would take this comprehensive approach and will say again, go with the Brembo Racing front kit for the S197. Everything was calibrated and specified to work together. TV dinner simple. This may not be the cheapest route, but it is a proven, durable solution. In addition, there is Kohr and Cortex to bounce ideas off of for tire and pad options. In the end, you may spend a bit more, but you'll be done and definitely not dealing with the situation you are in now.

I will not even try to front as if I have as much track time and experience as most on this forum but I do echo the observation/opinion that you can do a lot better now than Baer.....

Agreed, I just need to get through these next couple events and then go shopping this winter.

 

[TMSBOSS]

Sounds like you hit the perfect storm of worn pads, no ducting and a panic stop. Best part was, you hit nothing.

50% pad thickness can get you by on a shorter/slower track. High speed tracks demand a bit more pad. I have a box with pad sets below 40% wear remaining. I carry them in the trailer in case in need a set to get through a session or two only.

Like you mentioned already. Rebuild current set up and add cooling.

When I first started playing with quality parts I followed the bedding procedures for my front pads.....I thought. Seemed ok until after 3 sessions I had so much pad build up the front end had a vibration. What mistake disk I make?? I left the brake ducts open. The ducts cooler the front pads enough that the bedding process was not affective. Easy fix, sanded the rotors with a DA, put duct tape on the cooling intakes and robed the pads.

That was my lesson on the affect of 3" brake ducts. Glad neither of us had a serious failure.....while learning.

 

[Fabman]

Sounds like you hit the perfect storm of worn pads, no ducting and a panic stop. Best part was, you hit nothing.

50% pad thickness can get you by on a shorter/slower track. High speed tracks demand a bit more pad. I have a box with pad sets below 40% wear remaining. I carry them in the trailer in case in need a set to get through a session or two only.

Like you mentioned already. Rebuild current set up and add cooling.

When I first started playing with quality parts I followed the bedding procedures for my front pads.....I thought. Seemed ok until after 3 sessions I had so much pad build up the front end had a vibration. What mistake disk I make?? I left the brake ducts open. The ducts cooler the front pads enough that the bedding process was not affective. Easy fix, sanded the rotors with a DA, put duct tape on the cooling intakes and robed the pads.

That was my lesson on the affect of 3" brake ducts. Glad neither of us had a serious failure.....while learning.

Point well made. So how do we bed pads and new rotors now that this thing will never see the street again?
Plug vents for one session only, correct? Anything else?