Another tire thread? come on! but.....looking for autoX / Street options

[funksouljon]

For my 08 GT. Did 2 PPIR Track Attack Practice days in the last month, pretty fun. But I certainly need more traction than the 225s provide. So already ordered Apex 18x9.5 to go up in rims but not have to commit to the full upgrades. That will be next year, this year I am fine keeping the street bias. I am hoping to get in 10 weekends this year, autoX courses. It won't be my primary road vehicle, but would be nice to have as a fun option when I don't want to ride.

I will be going to PPIR this weekend and there are a lot of Mustangs registered so I will be hitting them up for suggestions as well. Apex recommends 275/35-18, 285/35-18 and 285/30-18 square setup. Couple more weeks till the sexy new wheels arrive so starting to see which to try first.

My questions......

• How much of a difference between the 285/35 and the 285/30 in the ride quality?
• What brands are sticky enough for a newbie but would still last for some street driving? @Bill Pemberton , you mentioned Yoko in another thread, which ones?
• If I am looking at tire rack/discount tires, what description for tires are possibles that perhaps haven't been discussed? "ultra high performance summers" or what?

And then sort of related, camber plates. Im thinking of making the leap on this, reduces wear, pays for itself right?

Thanks, J

 

[Bill Pemberton]

The Yokohama A052s are mega sticky and likely wear the fastest of the 200TWR rubber ( according to plenty of guys who run the Solo Nationals site in Lincoln, Ne. ). They are arguably the hot ticket for many cars right now , but if you want one that has a bit better life and is still very competitive I would check out the BFG Rival S1.5. You kind of limited yourself with 9.5s instead of 10 inch rims , so those two tires you would likely want to put a 275/18 on.

You have another choice with the Falken RT660 , as it comes in a 285/18 , is pretty darn sticky and seems to be wearing pretty well on the highway also.

There are a few other 200 TWR tires out there , but I would say these are your better choices , imho.

 

[funksouljon]

The 9.5 was a conscious decision, 10 is a tweener and would require the same suspension changes as an 11, so the 9.5 was as big as I could go and NOT have to commit to the cascade of upgrades due to the width of the wheel. And I will get 11's next year for street vs race rims WHEEL. Part of the 2022 plan, 2021 is designated butt-in-seat season.

Im not opposed to going with a "lesser" tire this first pass seeing as how anything will be better than what I have and I expect I will burn down a much more aggressive tire with street driving.

So far,
Falken RT660 (but not the 500 series?) And the 615k isn't at the same level as the 660?
Yokohama A052
BFG Rival S1.5

 

[blacksheep-1]

" So already ordered Apex 18x9.5 to go up in rims but not have to commit to the full upgrades. "

" You kind of limited yourself with 9.5s instead of 10 inch rims"

but srsly, if you can learn to drive on 200 treadwear tires, with a set of sticker Hoosiers you would be like superman. Right now you just need longevity and consistency, those BFGs that Bill mentioned would be fine.

 

[funksouljon]

" So already ordered Apex 18x9.5 to go up in rims but not have to commit to the full upgrades. "

Yeah yeah, wheels. Replace rims with wheels across the post and reply about the tires.

 

[funksouljon]

" So already ordered Apex 18x9.5 to go up in rims but not have to commit to the full upgrades. "

" You kind of limited yourself with 9.5s instead of 10 inch rims"

but srsly, if you can learn to drive on 200 treadwear tires, with a set of sticker Hoosiers you would be like superman. Right now you just need longevity and consistency, those BFGs that Bill mentioned would be fine.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=g-Force+Rival+S+1.5&sidewall=Blackwall%20Alternate%20Design&partnum=735WR8GFRSV2&tab=Sizes

vs

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Falken&tireModel=Azenis+RT660&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=735WR8RT660&tab=Sizes

I've never tried either. Are the BFG worth the $400 more per set over the 660s? From a longevity or stickiness etc? And from a price point, they Yoko seem to fall right in the middle. But, I do plan on driving to and from the track, etc, etc.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

The Falkens are the slowest of the three, but if you are just beginning and this is the year for seat time, $400 will go a long way towards your second set of tires. Seat times means tire consumption, so though I think the BFG is a better tire, there is a case for the less expensive one when all three options are some of the strongest choices for 200 TWR competition rubber. Good luck.

 

[DaveW]

What are all the suspension changes needed for 10 inch wheels? Not being a smart alec...I ran both 18x11 and 19x11 square with my car lowered and the only rubbing was on the rear sway bar and that was minor. I had to switch bars and chose to cut the bump stop things off when I went with 18x12 and 335 square. I also get light rubbing in the front at full lock. Just curious, I see so many people fearing big wheels (and tires) and have always wondered.

Back to tires, the Yokohama should not even be on the table if you are going to street drive. That seems to be a 60 run tire max on a lot of cars and I don't subscribe to it being unbeatable on big cars either. BFG still won at the recent Dixie Tour and I kept all the yokohama guys behind me on day 1 on Falkens.

The RT660 is a different animal than the 615. The 615 is pretty off pace to anything modern.

IMO, either will work fine for what you want. The BFG will have slightly worse road manners and rain performance, the Falken slightly better .

DaveW

 

[funksouljon]

@DaveW , it seems you start to get into spacers needed etc pending the specific tire profile.

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[DaveW]

@DaveW , it seems you start to get into spacers needed etc pending the specific tire profile.

S197 Mustang Wheel & Tire Fitment Guide

S197 2005-2014 Mustang Wheel and Tire Fitment Guide Vehicle Covered in this Guide2005-2014 Mustang Chassis IntroductionFord completely redesigned the Mustang for 2005, bringing back retro styling ...

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Ah, yep. I started out with long studs and spacers at the ready so never paid attention to that issue.

DaveW

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Key note here is that DaveW runs a CAMC Mustang, because one of the items many of us overlook is how a tire acts on our car, not how it reacts on others. The A052 seems to have better wear on smaller cars, but DaveW mentioned to me a year ago that they really heat up too much for the heavier cars , especially if you have two drivers in an autocross situation. We have seen some folks on the site say the tires work pretty well on a road course so fair to include them , as tires can work differently on a road course and an autocross. So in trying to be subjective and overcome my biases, I listed all three, but I will admit I really believe the Rival is the way to go , and the Falken 660 is also a decent choice ( especially if funds are a factor ).

One of the last notes DaveW mentioned was he already had ARP long studs on his car , and frankly that is a great idea to do regardless if you have 18x9.5 rims to 18x11s -- safety and strength.

 

[Dave_W]

Speaking of the extended wheel studs, how many miles are on your car and have you ever replaced the front hubs? Being 12 years old, you might think about getting the Ford Performance M-1104-A front hubs that come with 3" ARP studs installed. Bigger, stickier tires and autocross/track driving puts a lot more stress on the front wheel bearings than street driving, so knowing they're good is good comfort. For lug nuts, you can use the Ford M-1012-G or Optimum Performance (OPMustang.com - site sponsor) offers some trick ones.

I think that the Falken is probably the better tire vs the BFG or Yok for someone starting out - you save money that you can use on event fees for more seat time, and as a rookie, the driver is the biggest factor. I tell my autocross students it's 80% driver and 20% car - and if the Yok is 10-20% better than the Falken, that's only 20% of 20% - a 4% difference. I see a lot of rookes getting 4% faster on each run just from seat time.

The 660 is newer and according to a GRM test a few issues back heats up faster for more grip over the older 615, but it can also get overheated and greasy more easily than the 615. If you're looking at autocross, go with the 660, but if you're more track-oriented the 615 may give you more consistent feel through an entire session. Some rookies can overdrive the car, which puts more energy into a tire and causes it to overheat more quickly, so starting your track life on a "harder" tire can be a good thing. I think the goal of someone starting out in track days is to have a car that is able to run each session consistently start-to-finish all day. That maximizes seat time for learning, rather than having to wait for tires (or brakes, engine, gearbox, etc.) to cool down.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Really great idea from Dave _W on getting the Ford Performance hubs and killing two issues with one Credit Card, ha. You also asked about Camber Plates and the Vorshlag set gives you more range, is the most expensive, but many of us feel it is also the best. Another good choice is the M&M camber plate , and. having used both on numerous cars I also give it high marks.

You list autocross as what you have done over the past three years, but you comment on basically going to track days. If that is your choice I would stick with the BFG first and the Falken RT660 second. I agree with Dave_W on a lot of things, but since even though I have autocrossed since 1981, I primarily road race now and the RT 660 heats up a bit more with experienced drivers on a road course ( referencing the Grassroots Motorsports article ) , but I feel it is more communicative than the 615. In fact the 660 is a direct result of some of the lack of feel from the RT615K tire, and for a new driver I believe feel is a bigger need than other concerns. Having some friends who are National Champions that found the 615 a bit of a trick to drive fast , it is one reason I would suggest the 660 for either usage. If you are trending towards road course the BFG might be your better pick as it is heats up quickly on an autocross for sure , but it does quite well on a road course. Quite a few of the HPDE drivers I have Instructed use the BFGs and they work pretty damn well. It will cost you more and as I mentioned earlier the cost may still mean going 660 first as it will save bucks. Frankly , with many newer drivers a 15 minute HPDE run will likely not get the 660 or BFG overly greasy.

Great sources of information --- Grassroot Motorsports, Tire Rack and TMO. You will find varying opinions with all but important to check them all out to speak to your specific needs or even changing thoughts.

 

[Dave_W]

Good point on the "communication" part, Bill. A major beneficial factor for novices, along with not being "edgy" but having a smooth "forgiving" breakaway at the limit. Experienced drivers have had time to develop the "feel" for tires that are at their limit; I think a big part of the learning curve for a novice is developing that feel. So IMHO novices are best served by tires that are communicative, forgiving, and consistent, rather than having the most outright grip. Of course, if a grippy tire has those other factors, so much the better. Anyway, that's just my opinion. Thanks, again, Bill for your insight.

 

[funksouljon]

Thanks to both of you, appreciate the autoX discussion as that is what I see for this year at least. That limited info in the profile..... I have years of motorcycle road racing a decade ago and then took time away after earning a metal plate. I did a track day last year, that is what pulled me back to the track. This car is specific to getting back on a track and a cage is noticeably safer. The Mustang was the best of most worlds for my needs even though many said Miata. This year is almost exclusively for AutoX, but I might do a track day if they fall into the schedule.

Will look at the Ford hub @Dave_W , thats half the price of some other options and the peace of mind is nice for the price.

I def agree with the seat time. Last week my approach is simple, put up a time, and then push harder and get faster but just finish all 5 runs without being dead last. All goals met. But watching videos of my run and the faster folks, I can def see some areas to improve on, even with my current set up (cough cough tires).

Also, tip of the cap to @06mach1 , he had to modify the standard plates for me since apparently one side was less square than the other on my pinch welds. The lift plates have made fiddling with all these changes a lot easier by using the plates vs the stock lift points.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Nice to mention @o6mach1, and typical of the help many on here offer others!!

Captain Distraction just schooled me on a surge pump and I was floored with all the time and effort he went to in order to help me!!

We are both TMO ----Thankful Mustang Owners!

 

[funksouljon]

I finally pulled the trigger, the take offs I purchased were starting to wear down, figured with all the talk of delays it would be months before the new rubber came in. Nope 4 days.

Don't have a good comparison between the new and old due to the drastic difference. But old = 245/40/17 RS4 vs new 275/35/18 RE71R are wow. So far, just "puttn' " around town, they stick. Who am I kidding, I have been romping on it.

Signed up for the local Test n Tune next saturday. It will be interesting.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

..............and when those wear out you will have a much bigger Menu for your Pylon Pulverization Pursuits. By then you could like have the following choices to select from

1. Yokohama A052
2. Kumho V730s
3. BFG Rival S 1.5s
4. Falken RT 660
5. ...and maybe a new Hooconti autocross rubber air filled automotive donut.


We know Bridgerock has disappeared from the arena since their new RE71R variant is available in Asia and it is slower than the current model, but who knows if they may pop back in next year with some changes/

 

[misterpeanut]

Hi guys, I'm in this same boat. Still on the stock 19x9 wheels that came with the Brembo package for my 2013 GT, and looking for a great street tire I can run at a few HPDE days this coming year. One of the guys at APEX told me about the Hankook Ventus R-S4, says it has amazing wear qualities and track day use. Was telling me if my track days are 4 or 5 per year this would be a 2 year tire? Thoughts on that?

Also, can I get a 285 tire to mount on these wheels safely, or is there a true risk of the tire coming off the bead?

 

[Bill Pemberton]

I would jump over to a new generation 200 TWR tire designed for HPDEs and Endurance Racing from the marriage of Continental and Hoosier before using an RS-4. They are getting hard to find and size availability is a concern, and the new Continental Extreme Force was designed for exactly what you are asking for. It is a new tire, current generation and like other commodities advances often mean better overall characteristics. The RS-4 had been around for a long time, and it has been successful for Endurance Events and those wanting a tire for just fun in HPDE situations. Check out the Continental , designed for your concerns and for those wanting a strong 200 TWR tire rumor has it that 2022 will see a stickier version for those wiggling through cones.