Ford “Mustang” Mach-E 1400 Prototype

[TMSBOSS]

I would be happy with a vehicle which could recharge in 45-60 minutes. Have a nice meal, unplug and go. Not to mention we usually wait an hour or more between sessions. Make the batteries rechargeable in that time frame and then we may have a solid competitor for our performance dollars.

 

[blacksheep-1]

I would be happy with a vehicle which could recharge in 45-60 minutes. Have a nice meal, unplug and go. Not to mention we usually wait an hour or more between sessions. Make the batteries rechargeable in that time frame and then we may have a solid competitor for our performance dollars.

So. .and I'm being somewhat facetious here, once again we find that we must cater to technology rather than technology catering to us. I blame all of this on Ray Kroc ( the founder of McDonald's) he was the first guy of note that decided "screw you, you get it MY way" if you want to eat at my restaurants, or wait 45 minutes for a custom burger. It wasn't supposed to be this way when I was watching Star Trek in the 60s, the humans called the shots.

Captain, it's Scotty, we need to pull over and plug in at the planet Unobtainium so we can plug into the dilithium crystal charging machine at the parking lot of the Jet Mart, we'll have to put off chasing the Klingons and save the world later.

 

[TMSBOSS]

Don’t forget the Tribbles. Lol.

 

[Ludachris]

my 15 year old is driving the Edge but she wants a Jeep. We talked about EVs and Hybrids but she wants a Jeep.

My 13 year old daughter says she wants a Jeep too. When the time comes, and she test drives one, I wonder if she'll still want one.

 

[Ludachris]

Ford has to compete with major distractions impacting kids, and all the while their parents are telling them that American cars are second rate, because when they were growing up, they probably were...

My wife hates our Traverse - she dearly misses our old Touareg we traded in for it. It drove so much nicer, had a more "premium" interior, and surprisingly enough, had very few mechanical issues... the sensors on the other hand, those were a pain in my ass. I haven't had to deal with a CEL in the Traverse yet, but we did have the transmission replaced just before the warranty ran out (thankfully) due to something that was causing the transmission to vibrate/shudder while cruising at just under 2k RPM, really bad uphill. Combine that with a couple failed motor mounts, a failed rear hatch arm, and other annoying issues here and there.

Due to this experience and the issues my mother-in-law had with her Chrysler Pacifica and Dodge Durango, domestics don't get high praise from my wife, even with me trying to explain that things are different these days. She was complimenting the new Lincoln Aviator but then noticed it was a domestic and said "never mind". She likes the new Kia Telluride. I'm wondering if she'll start looking at any of the new EV crossovers anytime soon.

I will say that I've noticed more young people (early to late 20's) driving more muscle cars lately though. Maybe it's different between geographic regions?

 

[Bill Pemberton]

I sold Vipers for years ( enough to usually be the number one or two Dealer in the World ) and I constantly heard from the younger guys that the car needed to have turbos, or a PDK like Porsche, or a hybrid like Acura , and those comments and the positive comments from so many younger individuals make me believe the buyers Ford and others are going after are the younger generation. Part of the reason I think they are on the right track is they realize the 50-60-70 year olds are not the future buyers. It has always been one of the reasons vehicle dynamics have changed , but fun still sells , and the bulk of new buyers who were brought up on Playstation and Game boards see the new advances as the normal trend of computer and electronic dynamics. But, they still want the excitement when I chat with them, as it is a requirement of all the dynamics of play, the speed of Gran Turismo , F1 2019 , etc. --------- we are just getting older and not realizing that the automotive scene is changing at an even more rapid pace than we grew up with.

I just want to be around when I can drive a hybrid or electric that will do 0-60 in under 2 seconds , with little control issues and will zip through the quarter in 10 seconds and do 2 gs on a road course. Heck, we are close now , and Blacksheep and I both remember when going around Road America under 2:40 was considered fast and now little 4 bangers with downforce and more are doing it.

As we live in the legends of the Muscle Car Era , we have forgotten they did not stop , they did not turn, they were not even that fast --- 14 second quarter was smoking in the real world ( go read the old magazines to see what cars actually ran not the fish stories of what you heard ). I love today , where I have two cars in my garage that will run in the 11s, do close to 1.5 gs with the right tires, stop faster than a $200K Porsche of over a decade ago , and are now getting beat up by even faster stuff.

I envision an electric or hybrid , with solar panels on the roof ( even more advanced than today ) that will get me half way across the US on a tank of fuel --- motor and panels charging the electric battery pack as we go, and regenerating electrics under braking too.

It will make the machines we have now even more special, but they will be no different in our nostalgic minds than the machines of the 60s and early 70s are today.

 

[Ludachris]

I love today , where I have two cars in my garage that will run in the 11s, do close to 1.5 gs with the right tires, stop faster than a $200K Porsche of over a decade ago , and are now getting beat up by even faster stuff.

Agreed. And this is what also makes it so hard to believe that kids aren't more excited about cars these days. We have some really good ones available on the market right now - though I suppose the price point for them is a bit higher than most of the kids can afford, and insurance/fuel isn't exactly cheap.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

One good sign is to check the Birthdays on the Forum , and surprisingly there are an awful lot of 20 year olds running Mustangs. Add in the 30 year olds and I have not given up on the younger generation. Alot of them don't seem to post as much, which could be simply linked to the fact that there are alot of very technical folks here, and they could be just starting in their track sickness. I know when I began I was a sponge asking questions from older racers , and I did not contribute as much. I think once many of the younger guys find out how super helpful everyone is here, and how welcoming the entire group is to those of the Genus Trackraticus , we will see more and more posts.

I know I find many of the young guys on here who post about their track or autocross adventures almost more exciting than when the oldsters ( myself included ) write about their events, because there is an underlying enthusiasm and joy that is how many of us felt when we began racing !

Keep posting , everyone, because like our sports friends who spend all day talking about their favorite athletic figures, we are in a sport where we are the competitors and we enjoy hearing what others have done at our favorite tracks, auto crosses, drag strips, etc.

 

[TymeSlayer]

Fuel is cheap, unless you live on the left coast! Insurance, not so much.

I do like Bill's idea of traveling cross country in a EV that is self charged by solar panels on the car. Harness the energy of the sun and some of the concerns about a silent energized bunny car go away for some of us old tymers.

 

[JDee]

I lived on a sailboat (in summer) for 7 years. Powered by 4 X 6 volt deep cycles and 400 watts of solar and a 400 watt wind generator. That was kind of a standard sailboat formula for DC power. It was dicey, forget almost anything you do in a house on the grid. Converting to 110VAC (half wave rectified) was hugely inefficient, 12 volt everything was the only way.

Solar never reached 100% of its rated capacity, there are losses all over the place. And completely useless at night obviously. Full power for maybe 4 hours a day tops. Wind is, well, wind, therefore unreliable, only produced much power at over 15 knots of wind which was not common. I had lived off grid for quite a while so was prepared for those problems, but most sailors who were city folks just could not get their head around how little you could do on batteries. They constantly had problems killing their battery banks virtually every year from too many accidental total discharges.

I cannot imagine how big a bank of panels you'd need to power an EV. It would be staggering. Even if the entire top surface of the car was a panel I would expect it wouldn't add much range. The equipment and mechanics may have changed in the last 5 years, but I expect the limitations are still the same. I might try a hybrid car if the price comes down, but I don't see a full EV in my future anytime soon. Bit of a Luddite too, I guess.

 

[TymeSlayer]

I would imagine, over tyme, they would perfect and shrink the collection panels to make them more efficient. Who knows. But you are right JDee, the technology right now doesn't exist.

 

[302BOB]

Keep hope alive for new things to come around...

 

[Bill Pemberton]

I think the only reason I don't feel exactly like many of my contemporaries on here is because it has always seemed to me that the more the automotive scene was pushed the more we saw explosive gains in technology. Ten years ago no one would believe electric cars would go any reasonable distance and now we are starting to push 300-600 miles. In China they have an electric SUV that also has a small gasoline motor and what does it do, it charges the batteries when the vehicle has longer distances to go before getting to a charging station. Like JDee I know the roof charging system will not supply everything , but Hyundai has one right now on one model, so the technology is being used . It may be in it's infancy , but I just imagine a car with solar panels, a primarily electric hybrid , with a braking system that also helps regenerate, and who knows where we will be in another decade. My noisy beasts ( and yours ) are probably going to be phenomenal retirement devices , but I do think we will see things that will amaze us in a very short time.

Funny thing, like the Harley Davidson refused to die as a breed, I do think internal combustion rumbling machines will still roam the Earth for quite a time too, and we will still continue advances there too.

When attending Cars and Coffee on a Saturday in 2032 , after all the Battery Buggies have bopped in , can you imagine what the crowd with do when a thundering herd of wild Ponies gallops in? I have to imagine it will be super exciting for the younger buyers, just like it was for us when we saw an AC Cobra or Ferrari go by our little Pinto hatchback, ha!

 

[302FAM]

Great discussion. Part of my job includes working with kids and young adults. For years I’ve been shocked by the shear lack of interest in driving, flying, or most anything that excited bright eyed kids in previous generations. To that, add the fact that self-driving cars are going to be here soon (here in Ann Arbor we have Mcity, which is literally a mini city set up to create and test automated vehicles). Just imagine how passive of a driving experience that will be???, much more than what was experienced going from manual to automatic transmissions! The literal joy of driving could be lost by that alone.

The other part of my job is within the aeromedical industry. Guess what? While we might not yet be at the Star Trek level, we’re having a real run at the Jetsons this decade - flying cars are here, and massive preparations are being made to integrate them into our infrastructure. They are essentially all fully automated, no “real” pilots license needed, making it yet another passive “driving” experience, and nonetheless far different from driving on a road.

So, the way I see it electric cars are only one of three tsunami-size changes afoot as related to “driving.” I put driving in quotes as I’m not sure if we’ll be talking about the same thing 20 or 30 years from now. In this way, I really identify with Blacksheep-1, who seems to appreciate the changes we’ve seen in the youngins’ over the last 20 or so years. Those are real changes and not solely the result of the Technological Revolution, but that’s certainly a big part.of it.

On paper, this all sounds pretty bleak, but....

We must keep up Hope, like Bill and 302Bob and others stress. We must do things that “activate” our kids and grand-kids, and teach the youngins some of the finer experiences in life - they’re not going to know the absolute exhilaration and power of a high revving 444hp stock Boss 302 (restrictor plates OFF) on a winding road by playing an online video game or using a driving simulator! If they do not know, they will not seek.

Naturally, this is all a big mess, but the good Lord calls and equips us to do super-natural things, of which “I know in my heart” can be done. Preaching - ok, yes, BS - no way!!

Merry Christmas to you all and, with me lacking sufficient humility, let me leave us with a small but tangible way to perhaps make a difference (many of you already know/do this) - teach every child in our wheelhouse how to drive a stick shift. Connect them to the car with an active experience of driving, not passively coasting down a road in a self-driver, which is the only thing they’ll know unless we show them something else. And, have our kids or grandkids help us out in the garage sometimes, if we haven‘t done much of that yet. They’ll fuss at first, but give it some time and they will cherish the connection forever (or at least once they turn 25 or 30). Who knows, maybe someday we’ll have kids tinkering around in the garage again, looking up at the stars, or picturing the perfect racing line around the block.

Any other ideas are truly welcomed and needed!

 

[LS291]

I can't claim to be "young" anymore. I am about halfway to retirement, depending on when that day will be - hopefully sooner rather than later. However, I do have faith that those who genuinely are "young" will carry on the torch. I picked up the car bug from my boomer dad. My son and daughter can't wait to go for a ride in Daddy's Mustangs when I get one out. "Can we do a burnout?"

I've had the fortune of having an outsize automotive influence on the son of a friend of mine. He recently graduated from Penn State with a degree in Mechanical Engineering. He was interested in working for GM and had an interview with them. Perhaps my influence wasn't blue oval enough! Anyway, he said that all they wanted were people who were interested in electric cars. He is not so he didn't pursue further. Now he drifts a C5 Corvette and loves loud V8s. He's even gone so far to say that his next project car must be carbureted.

The electrics will have their place in our automotive futures. The size of which will depend upon advances in technology. For now, they don't make sense for me (or likely most people for that matter). Maybe there will come a day when that isn't so for me, but it won't be because Ford named an SUV after a pony car. I think the fear that most of us gear heads may feel about such things is the threat from politicians who want to make sweeping changes with no regard for the impact just to chase utopian dreams. All Out Crazy. Let people make their own choices and the electric future will likely arrive on its own given sufficient time and advances. Force people and it will be a fight every step of the way.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Best way to get kids on board is to give them a ride.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

With a 12 Second Turbo'd Probe, a 2970 lb. EVO 9 with 425 hp, a 2013 Viper GTS Launch Edition , and a 2013 Boss 302S between my son and myself, my grandson will have to learn to drive a manual. Have a small racing Kart for him that he can begin running this Spring, so he is already set to follow in his father and grandfather's footsteps. There are enough shiftless people in the US today, we aim to provide him with all the gear he needs to meet the World in any clutch situation!!!!

 

[blacksheep-1]

The issue I have with "green" energy is not only the travel distance, but the cost. right now you can take a new F150 Ecoboost, put 4 people in it and 1/2 ton and transport all of that about 20 miles for 2 bucks. Except Commiefornia where Newsom will breed you at the pump for about 4 bucks, but it's still a bargain.

 

[mwjscn]

At the time of writing, I’m 29, so that doesn’t cover the current teenage generation, but I may be able to offer some insights on someone straddling the fence between groups.

I think there are a few different key areas worth mentioning when talking about a younger generation and car enthusiasm. For most, their first bicycle is a tool in which they now have the freedom to visit places or friends when they want. A car only expands upon that. For many, it’s not about the journey but about the final destination, if you really think about it. The object itself isn’t usually part of the fascination for many, in the same way you may not know the exact grade of steel the hammer is made from other than ‘it gets the job done’.

This is heightened by two factors with the younger generation. Their access to capital to buy the enthusiast vehicle in question and the access it allows them to have within their social circle.

Through little fault of their own, the younger generation currently has less financial agency than pretty much any previous group. For many, this means not being able to afford the performance vehicle they would like to attain. Or for others, this means no thoughts of traditional performance at all – with a greater emphasis on sale price and mileage.

Additionally, there seems to be an increasing model of non-ownership regarding subscription services. In the coming days, especially once self-driving is a more-mature technology, people won’t even own cars, but share a single car multiple people ‘subscribe’ to (think of a timeshare, but as a vehicle). For urban people with high rent, a lack of prominent mass transportation (or if that is seen as too low-class), and the lack of bandwidth to want to deal with registration, insurance, maintenance, parking costs, and storage space, this seems to be a worthwhile proposition (see the increased use of services like Uber or Carvana when compared to the traditional Taxi experience or the Dealership experience).

Additionally, cars nowadays don’t grant access to one’s social circle like they may have previously. With the maturity of the internet, especially evident now during Covid, people don’t need to be in proximity to one another to communicate or share events. Technology is now the ‘vehicle’ that allows people to connect with their friends (since the days of AIM, my generation), not necessarily cars. Need to see a movie? Netflix. Need to get groceries? Many of them are online and will ship to you. Need to get literally anything else? Amazon Prime. There of course exists (many) reasons why one would still need or want a motor vehicle, but our dependence on personal vehicles is getting lower and lower.

Many of the ‘tinkerers’ that grow up now, having grown up in a computer era, and seeing how technology is the vehicle for many of their worldly interactions, may now turn to computers and technology to unleash their creative side. Building enthusiast-level computers is seen as not only easier but also more cost effective (often costing around 1,000 – 2,000 dollars) when compared to even maintaining a car correctly, not even considering the modification cost for an enthusiast (including the fact that a computer, 3D printer, or many other components can be assembled with a flat head screwdriver in your livingroom, in comparison to a car garage with the tools needed). 3D printing, CNC, and home manufacture are taking off as well as they begin to enter the range of accessibility. The same types of people still exist, they have just transitioned their field of interest, since for many a performance vehicle is outside their range of accessibility (this is also why there was a big focus on overseas Japanese vehicles, because they were often cheaper and therefore more accessible, as well as the unique factor. The same could be said for those that couldn’t access a performance-related tier, admiring their increased MPG or value-for-the-dollar).

As far as Tesla and electric vehicles are concerned, I do believe that electric vehicles will be a part of the future and may ultimately be the future. You have to also understand that in California, being in business is also fashionable. Owning a Tesla or a certain Apple product is now a social standing signal, much in the same way that a well-adorned mechanical watch with a tailored suit might have been the apex in yesteryear. The populous now having access to the Model 3 only enhances that, as multiple people can now access what is deemed to be fashionable and of high stature (to include the green earth virtue people). To bring up the watch metaphor again, before the mid-1800s pocket watches existed, but were only for those of extreme wealth (and the class that came along with that) since they were all made individually by master craftsmen. When the pocket watch was first able to be mass produced and still retain accuracy, you saw a lot of people showing it off in their photograph portraits at the time (especially soldiers). It was seen as a luxury good and people wanted to flaunt it. It also helps that a Tesla can blow the doors off most vehicles on the road. Within that circle, the classic car enthusiast is still there and you should definitely check out Mountain Pass Performance.

To speak personally, starting out I didn’t have any interest in vehicles other than as a tool. What started me getting interested in them was the process of fixing them, and how one could save money in a DIY fashion. My mentors taught me how to rotate my wheels, change my oil, and change my filters. That evolved into the neighbor teaching me how to use a tire mounting and balancing machine on my econosteelie wheels. It’s these sorts of things that brought out my engineer-side and made me interested in how stuff works. “The ride” is definitely a proponent of getting people’s attention, but for some learning these now-uncommon skills gives them the gratification of completing a job well done (which is a great endorphin hit, as many of you know) as well as the prospect of saving money while gaining knowledge. I was elated the first time I used a wiring chart and multimeter to diagnose that my alternator was in fact NOT faulty, but that I had blown an unknown-to-me large fuse on my firewall (saving big bucks at the time and feeling like a genius). If it was up to me, driving school would include sections on how to take off and change to a spare tire or how to jump a car battery, but they don’t and often the parents don’t bother either. When was the last time you got a wiring diagram with your washing machine? When was the last time you read a vehicle owner’s manual that didn’t just say ‘take it to the dealer’? While I agree that the internet has many available portals in which one can self-teach, many might feel that it is beyond their skillset when taking the first plunge and no one wants to mess up their expensive vehicle (common scare tactic by dealers). We live in an increasingly ‘disposable’ world, where once something breaks (and it often breaks easier), it’s thrown out. Large manufacturers realize they can persuade people not to repair, but to replace, with the profits going into their pocket.

I work for a very well known television company and one of my primary responsibilities is overseeing the post-production of content for our major car-related network (on air and digital). The network had no idea why they aren't scoring Neilsen ratings with any demographic under 55, but for that same period of time they only had content relating to 60s-70s American muscle cars. More young people identify now with a Honda Civic more than a 1970 Plymouth 'Cuda and it's just their failure to recognize this and expand their programming to include a larger group.

TL-DR: Between shifting personal transport and fashion trends, expense, and availability to knowledge and space – it really isn’t the young generations fault that they may not know to love cars in the same way. If you want to foster the relationship, I suggest being a mentor as much as you can and fostering a relationship related to repair. If the younger person sees the merit and feels empowered, you’ve lit the flame and they’ll pursue it.

Apologies for the longest post this forum probably has, but wanted to throw in my $200. As far as I’m concerned, I have no issue with the electric vehicle future (or even being driven around) as long as I get to fire up my Mustang on the weekends and row through the gears on my own.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

mwjscn,

Lots of great points and I totally agree on the mentoring concept , as it worked the way you describe in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and this Century ! The flow back and forth with performance machines has for a very long time been based on cost , and when younger buyers get their first cars they are often imports. Heck I did the same thing back in the 70s --- had the 3rd Honda Civic in the State of Kansas when they came out. It seemed to me to be the Mini Cooper of Japan and I loved that car and it was something I could afford.

You brought up a lot of good points and it reminded me that the one point I failed to list was geography. Whereas folks in the population centers may not see much interest by the younger generation ( assuming ages from 18 to at least 35 ) there seems to be plenty in the Midwest and other areas where driving is a must. We often see 125 or more Autocrossers at the Nebraska Region of the SCCA, and it was not too many years back where 80-90 was a huge number. The increase is in younger drivers and yes many are in Imports , but they are serious and there are also quite a few in Domestic Hot Rods.

Like SCCA, which dominated the track scene for years , NASA came in with a more user friendly format and started to steal some of the participants. Now we see " Gridlife " actively growing and likely taking away some of the racers that go normally with the SCCA or NASA groups. Lastly there is a plethora of track events popping up Nationwide organized by Track Event Companies and Automotive Clubs ( Porsche Club of America, BMW Club , Northwoods Shelby Club , etc. as examples ).

Some of these reasons are why I wonder if there really is as big a drop off as we assume , because it has often seemed to one generation that the next is less interested in the Automobile , but when record sales keep occurring , are we victims or perception and not really taking a hard look and seeing that reality is quite different -- sure a ton more Track Events now than there ever was a decade ago!